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US Supreme Court to overturn Roe vs Wade

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    I find social stuff like the abortion debate to be so polarising and vitriolic.

    Can never understand how these issues mobilise people more than say the housing or cost of living crises. I guess it's the back and white (ug the race debate) nature of them.

    The conspiracy theorist in me has it down as some kind of establishment divide and conquer device. Men vs women, black vs white, gay vs straight, pro life vs pro choice etc.




  • Registered Users Posts: 14,718 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Sigh... do I have to?


    OK, ill play this one time.


    Evil Republicans want to ban abortion because they want a cheap workforce

    Evil Republicans as of late also want to stop a ready-made workforce from coming into the country.

    The answer as it always is the R-word.


    Debating in ad-hominins is not really debating.


    The simple thing is of course that Republicans who are against abortion simply see the unborn as a person, who should be legally protected. That is the nub of it. No need for grand pronouncements or scary straw-manning.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,589 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    And that is the core of the issue in the US.

    The ridiculously complex legislative process means that the US is controlled/hamstrung by extreme minority positions.

    The US is not a democracy anymore , their system allows minorities to hold up and block any legislation they don't like regardless of the views of the majority. And due to the continued polarisation of opinions in the US those minorities are leveraging those structural weaknesses more and more

    There is no popular mandate to remove/limit access to Abortion anywhere in the US yet it's a real possibility that it might happen - All because a small group of people have been able to influence the entire process because of how broken it is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,718 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Most conservatives watch the #1 'news' shows in America: Hannity and Carlson..

    Hmmm....


    About 3 million people watch each program, and I would guess that many of them watch both, and you can throw in a few independents and Democrats too.


    We both know there are far far more than 3 million conservatives in the US, in fact being a conservative is more popular than being a liberal in the US.



  • Registered Users Posts: 83,407 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Well it's a great way to influence the population.

    If we're talking conspiracies and correlations, let's bring up the fact this decision to ban abortions comes at a time when the US has suffered a major pandemic and lost nearly 1 million people. It almost seems like an effort to stabilize the economy or something. I don't think it would have that effect mind you.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,896 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Straight to the victim narrative I see.

    No, you don't have to but it would be nice if conservatives stopped whining when questioned.

    This is a party that turned itself into a cult of personality around a guy who described Mexicans as rapists and drug dealers. Previously, they felt compelled to dress it up. Now they can display it openly.

    No amount of pretending to be victims is going to prove otherwise.

    Ditto for the anti-choice narrative. It's about misogyny, coercion and control. This is the same party doing its damndest to ensure school shootings remain a regularity so spare me the drivel about them seeing the unborn as people.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 83,407 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    “If this leaked draft opinion is the final decision and this reporting is accurate, it would be completely inconsistent with what Justice Gorsuch and Justice Kavanaugh said in their hearings and in our meetings in my office.” - Sen. Collins.


    The stage might be set to call up Gorsuch and Kavanaugh to answer questions related to possible Perjury.




  • Registered Users Posts: 83,407 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Amazon will reportedly launch a program to reimburse employees up to $4,000 per year for abortion-related travel costs now.




  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,589 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    There's also the hypothesis that Roe vs. Wade significantly reduced crime - The theory was first posited by the authors of the book "Freakonomics"

    The short version of the theory is that most abortions were by single mothers in lower socio-economic groups and that most crime comes from people coming from broken homes/ lower socio economic groups. So , the legalization of Abortion essentially removed several generations of potential criminals from the scene.

    Their research suggested that States with more liberal Abortion laws saw a 60% greater reduction in Crime when compared to States with restrictive laws even when normalised for changes in law enforcement - like New Yorks "broken window" policies etc.

    I've never personally been fully bought into the theory , but that data certainly begs many questions.

    So by banning abortion are they just setting themselves up for massive crime and welfare problems in ~20 years time?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,896 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    When corporations have better principles than conservatives.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,583 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Doesn't really matter. Not like they'll be removed from office. Now, can they be shamed enough into recusing themselves? Or changing their votes? That decision per the various legal analyses I've seen is friking dreadful jurisprudence and they should be embarrassed to sign up to it. You can't embarrass Thomas or Alito, maybe there's hope for Gorsuch, he's occasionally strayed from the program.

    And, as we know, Kavanaugh has big problems with the truth. Just ask Christine Blasey Ford.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,718 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    No, you don't have to but it would be nice if conservatives stopped whining when questioned.

    I am not a conservative, first and foremost.

    Anyway, seeing as you and others have the great foresight and talent into reading people's minds and motives, I'm out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 83,407 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I think we have to call it up as the Fallacy-Fallacy if we're sweeping all talk of Racism or having Racist Thoughts under the rug as "ad hominem" - ordinarily, ad hominems are best avoided, on the subject of racism, it cannot be avoided, it is often inexorable from the topic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 83,407 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I'd really rather prefer to ask whoever paid off all of his debts.

    Sen. Whitehouse is the guy to talk to when it comes to Dark Money and how it already owns the court.




  • Registered Users Posts: 83,407 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    That may be their nightly viewership. That may not include readership, or listenership where it pertains to their own daylighting work as Radio hosts, or as authors of numerous online articles or even as guests on other shows, promulgating their race theories. I think you will find many conservatives who come about to discuss the media, are always quick to point out the prominence of Fox News in their media bubble though (it is a great source of pride for the conservative movement that they get better rating than CNN, etc), and even with personal incredulity you will still find readily that Great Replacement Theory, as propagandized heavily by these prominent outlets at the center of the Republican Party, is very alive and well in the US political zeitgeist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,661 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    What's the evidence for this, please?

    Because if it's true, why don't babies need anesthetics when being squashed through the birth canal? Lots of babies are born with visibly deformed heads. Imagine the force needed to that to a baby, even straight after birth?

    Or, another thing: babies sometimes have to have their collar bone broken by the midwife or doctor, if the arm presents first (shoulder dystocia). Again, the mother is told the baby feels nothing. And they definitely don't scream the way a child would if you snapped its collar bone, so it seems to be true.

    As I understand it, this is because even full term fetuses are naturally in a semi-anesthetised state in the womb.


    So I'd be very interested to see this evidence that a 24 week fetus feels pain while in the uterus.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,589 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Could make for some interesting legal cases.

    Under the latest version of Texas law (and several other States) that would come into effect should Roe vs. Wade be over-turned, Amazon could be charged for "facilitating" an Abortion if they provided the funding for an employee to leave and go to another State to have the procedure.

    Along with the woman herself and anyone that accompanied her or any medical professional that provided advice to the women etc.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,896 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Absolutely. And Amazon would be in a very powerful position both in terms of lawyers and in terms of being such a huge employer which could divert investment and jobs. The party of business strikes again.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 83,407 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Fetal Pain science varies but there's no scientific consensus. This is the position of the American College of Pediatricians, for example, but that only represents a few hundred doctors (500 estimate)

    We have some groups saying 25 weeks, some say 12, etc. etc. based on this or that criteria, eg. this paper, cited 35 times in academia (it's fuzzy) itself mentions that many scientists argue after 24 weeks for example because of cognitive development


    It's a 'whatever you feel like' in politics terms.




  • Registered Users Posts: 7,661 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Absolutely, but my point is that if those who claim to believe in fetal pain actually did believe in it (as opposed to using the claim as a weapon in the abortion wars) there would be all sorts of other consequences in obstetrics and gynecology.


    That none of them ever seem to think to apply their logic to miscarrying fetuses, or indeed to fully mature fetuses during birth, tells me that they don't believe their own propaganda.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,661 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    I have to admt that this made me laugh - but then I'm not American, so can afford to.


    https://twitter.com/femmehonnete1/status/1521353782499577857



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,886 ✭✭✭✭MisterAnarchy


    Is that the same Amazon that treats its employees like dirt and has a staff turnover of over 150% per year ?

    Good old Amazon.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,896 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    The same GOP that fomented a fascist insurrection only last year?

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 83,407 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The same Amazon that is providing $4,000/yr in abortion related travel for employees, that cut off trade with Russia, and has donated medical supplies in $35M in other products to Ukraine. That's the same Russia that conservatives in the US think are a great bunch of lads to bomb the hell out of all those Nazis. So yes, that is Good old Amazon, with better principles than conservatives. You're telling me conservatives actually care about worker conditions and staff turnover? My states Right to Work statute would like to call bullshit on that. South Carolina is thrilled to have Amazon centers here and they don't give a **** if you work for $15 an hour but pee in a bottle, they call that a Choice about what you do with your own body.

    Again, good on Amazon for recognizing womens healthcare.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,991 ✭✭✭Cordell


    I dare to say that those who would be actually benefit from those hypothetic 4 grand and those peeing in a bottle are two very distinct groups :)



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I'm pro-choice in a general sense (I see it as a complex moral and legal area however), but making the case for greater abortion access as a crime prevention measure always struck me as deeply ugly and cartoonishly anti-natalist. I also don't think society should be taking its queues on an inport issue from a flimsy causitive leap in a chapter in an airport newsagent pop-economics book.



  • Registered Users Posts: 83,407 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users Posts: 14,886 ✭✭✭✭MisterAnarchy




  • Registered Users Posts: 83,407 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    GOP Senator Murkowski says the decision undermines her faith in the Court

    Roe is still the law of the land. We don’t know the direction that this decision may ultimately take, but if it goes in the direction that this leaked copy has indicated I will just tell you that it, it, it rocks my confidence in the court right now.

    Collins and Murkowski are often derided as "RINOs" by conservatives ("Republican, in Name Only") because they are much more centrist than their colleagues, similar situation as Senator Joe Manchin. So, their statements won't carry too much immediate weight, but it is indicative that the GOP may face glaring unity problems coming into the midterms. Democrats, meanwhile and speaking of Manchin, may face their own midterm issues as they struggle to demonstrate legislative ability: the politics will focus on their ability to go nuclear on a filibuster to codify Roe vs Wade in US law. Manchin will have none of it, nor will several other Senators who see themselves, and the filibuster as 'too important.' It certainly does make them the center of attention and their pocket books love it.

    If Dems make the election about Republicans blocking them at each and every turn, that will only help Republicans, who campaign on blocking Democrats at each and every turn, and their "radical socialist marxist agenda." Words right out of my Congressman's mouth, too. Democrats would be freely advertising to Republican voters that, what they're doing works.

    If however the midterms become a mandate itself on abortion access in the United States, we may see a very different Congress seated in 2023.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,896 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Neither does the GOP though they maintain Biden's the one with dementia.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



This discussion has been closed.
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