M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

Sam Russell · 30-04-2022 4:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118997663#Comment_118997663

Ok, let us look at those who would be discommoded while we 'just give it a try'.

Elderly - really? These generally have free bus passes and would benefit hugely from a decent frequent bus service - but many elderly do not drive anyway.

Limited mobility - I would expect those with blue passes to be exempt, and others would benefit from cars not parking on the pavement, and fewer cars anyway.

Parents with young children - really? Do you mean the ones that drive their 4X4 SUVs right up to the school gates blocking access to those children that walk or cycle the few Kms to school. It is because of the 4X4 SUVs that most of the kids are driven to school in 4X4 SUVs to protect them from the 4X4 SUVs driving the other kids to school. Most of these kids arriving in SUVs probably live less than 2 Kms from the school anyway, and if further would benefit from frequent PT. Fewer cars would make he city safer for young ones.

So give it a go on a temporary basis, rather that wait a decade for the GCRR, and then have to give it a go.

Aontachtoir · 30-04-2022 7:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118997788#Comment_118997788

I don't think there is much point discussing this further if you can list all of these major improvements to PT infrastructure and then claim that there are no significant plans to improve PT in Galway.

The only consistent thread in your posts seems to be a belief that any PT improvements made while the ring road is being planned can never be good enough. It doesn't matter how much space is turned over to buses, how many streets are closed to cars, how much extra hassle is put on drivers' shoulders, it will never be enough unless the ring road is cancelled.

There's just no sensible discussion to be had with that mindset.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118998038#Comment_118998038

People's daily lives aren't just things to be played with and thrown around for a bit of fun. "Ah shure give it a go and see what happens" is not a good enough approach for expensive, untested policy choices that will affect so many people and businesses.

Seth Brundle · 30-04-2022 7:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118998976#Comment_118998976

"Ah shure give it a go and see what happens" is not a good enough approach for expensive, untested policy choices that will affect so many people and businesses.

...as opposed to the well researched approach that increasing road space encourages even more traffic?

30-04-2022 10:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118998976#Comment_118998976

All due respect but I've consistently stated that the current GTS is the GCRR and a series of half measures.

Taking PT as an example, the cross city link and Dublin rd upgrades create a spine of bus priority through the city, that's all.

What is actually needed is

a full network of bus lanes for all routes (on high traffic sections)
bus priority at all junctions
All bus stops having shelters
All routes to run at sub 10 min frequency from 6am to midnight
Late night bus services Thu-Sat

So yeah, the GTS PT improvements are absolutely welcome as they improve the current situation but they don't go anywhere near what is actually needed

Green Peter · 03-05-2022 10:45am

It's a pity we didn't remain part of the commonwealth, this would have been built in the 60's or 70s

CatInABox · 03-05-2022 1:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119008814#Comment_119008814

Northern Ireland remained part of the commonwealth, and their infrastructure is in dismal shape.

Green Peter · 03-05-2022 2:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119009612#Comment_119009612

They had motorways long before we did.

what_traffic · 03-05-2022 3:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119008814#Comment_119008814

Computer says no ~~Orange~~ Green Peter. It was done in the 80's/90's.

Anyhow why would one build a Motorway in the 60's / 70's around a small town on the West Coast of Ireland? What ever Commonwealth one would be in it would not have been done? Comparing a huge Industrial city in the Center of England with Galway town.......

Aontachtoir · 03-05-2022 4:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119008814#Comment_119008814

???

There is no Commonwealth government or central infrastructure spending. Kenya, Malawi, and Zambia are Commonwealth nations - how is their infrastructure compared to ours?

If you mean we should have remained in the UK, like NI did, we would likely be little more than West Wales, with infrastructure and an economy to match. Looking at the current state of NI and comparing it with modern Ireland, it seems clear that the Home Rulers had it right.

Sam Russell · 03-05-2022 5:07pm

Mod: Can we keep to the GCRR please - speculating about an unlikely possibility (that is not the GCRR) is off topic.

cgcsb · 03-05-2022 8:12pm

Lots of motorway projects are being cancelled across Europe over the past year, and I see it as a trend that will only continue. I think the M20 and M28 will get through on safety / haulage reasons, although I can still see the M20 being replaced with some bypasses and a greater spend on rail connectivity. Politically speaking building new motorways just doesn't get the political capital it could get 10 years ago. In Dublin big road projects like the eastern bypass, outer bypass etc. were quietly dumped without an eyelid batted. There is also a small amount of belt tightening on one off housing, which will likely increase to be more in line with standard European development rules. It's down to government now, if they can provide affordable housing in more compact urban areas then great, if they fail to do that there'll be backlash, you can't push people from 2 sides and expect movement. The cost of the Galway project will likely be the death of it given the 2:1 ratio of public transport to road expenditure. The very first 'carbon budget' was this year and there's not a snowballs chance that a project like this will score well.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20211201-austria-s-greens-halt-controversial-highway-projects

Aontachtoir · 04-05-2022 3:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119011483#Comment_119011483

The road was needed in the past, is needed today, and will be needed for decades to come. As plans develop to drastically alter the layout of Galway's traffic patterns, the need for this road is greater than ever. It will almost certainly be built.

Carbon budgets and 2:1 spending restrictions are entirely artificial and completely self-imposed restraints. In a world where our emissions are essentially negligible on a global scale, and where the biggest polluters are not restricting themselves in any way, there is no good reason for Irish citizens to be denied the benefits of better infrastructure. If this government won't admit that, then the next government (likely to be one with a very different composition and a brutally populist approach to environmental issues) most likely will.

The road will be built, one way or the other, to help ease congestion in Galway as part of a multipronged strategy including much improved public transport. For everyone's sake, it will hopefully be built sooner rather than later.

KrisW1001 · 04-05-2022 8:45am

It’s true that motorways are being canned across Europe, but that’s mainly because those countries have a fully developed long-distance road network by now, and anything new really should be be accommodated by lower-capacity, point-to-point links.

Ireland is nearly at that stage too: N20 is the last bit of motorway needed for a national network that connects major population centres. Upgrading the remaining National Primaries to 2+2 (or even a consistent Type 1 Single with junction removal in the case of remote parts of the country) is really all that’s needed now.

GCRR is not really a motorway, though - even if they slap blue signs on it. It will have multiple, closely-spaced junctions and will operate at 100km/h maximum. The most accurate description is that it’s an urban collector/distributor, like Cork’s N40, but at least N40 is functioning as a city bypass too. I’m not against major road projects, but this is just the wrong solution, and some parts of it (tunnelling under the racecourse?) are an appalling waste of public money. I’d rather see the exact same money spent on more targeted road-building throughout the city and its hinterland.

CruelSummer · 05-05-2022 1:37pm

Leading Irish architects present their vision for Galway in the future (irishtimes.com)

This is an interesting piece on a group of architects who travelled to European cities in search of what way to move forward with Galway in the future, its recommendations, etc.

cgcsb · 05-05-2022 2:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119012896#Comment_119012896

The modelling report says its not needed though as only 5% of traffic in the city is not city bound or ex city.

Carbon budgets and spending rules are of course self imposed but why does that matter. They're not rules that are going to disappear in our life times.

Pointing the finger at other polluters is what aboutary. This is something we have control over right now. If the earth's climate and eco systems are catastrophically and permanently damaged and human society collapses as a result will you be sitting there in your loin cloth saying 'oh well, there was no point in my community doing anything because we only contributed X% to the problem.' Sure everybody could say the same, even big polluters just point the finger at others and take no action themselves.

marno21 · 05-05-2022 2:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119019410#Comment_119019410

Re: your third paragraph. What you say is exactly what's going to happen. Western people are not going to give up a high quality of life in order to facilitate emissions reduction whilst the rest of the world continues as normal. We're already talking here about the Green Party getting absolutely hosed at the next election because of the unpopularity of fairly moderate Green policies e.g. around turf, cycling, cars etc. Asking middle class people to either take on new taxes or cuts to living standards for emissions reductions will not work out well. All you'll get is politicians being elected at the next election being elected to undo all this (look at Donal Trump being elected in 2016 with his climate policies - these are very popular especially in rural areas - here in Ireland as well). The current approach to emissions reductions politically is the equivalent of asking low and middle earners to take pay cuts or tax increases in order to reduce the national debt.

Not building projects, be it roads or otherwise, in order to reduce emissions in the current global climate is deeply, deeply unpopular amongst the population as a whole. It's properly stunting Galway's growth potential for no realistic gain. On current trajectories, the lack of an M6 Galway Ring Road will not matter one bit in terms of the outcome climate wise in 30/40 years time. However, it will matter quite a bit to Galway City if this project doesn't go ahead. And the people of Galway will vote with this in mind. Same in Limerick with their northern relief road, a project which ironically would greatly improve public transport and active travel options in the area despite the absolute shite coming from the Green Party about it.

If you want to come up with solutions that will be useful in tacking emissions, come up with something that's either cheaper for the consumer or better than the current offering available to the consumer.

And if Eamon Ryan wants to find practical ways to reduce emissions in this country, he might try doing his job and getting the offshore wind planning issues sorted. That's something that will make an actual difference, not ranting about motorways and cars being evil.

timmyntc · 05-05-2022 3:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119019616#Comment_119019616

As to how likely it is the ring road actually goes ahead, well the business case for it is not good.

The number of journeys actually bypassing the city is remarkably low. 5% of all traffic bypassing the city is not a good case for going ahead and spending up to a billion € on it, in an era when new road construction and carbon emissions are to be so heavily scrutinized.

It's not like it will make people living in Galway commute more sustainably - the projects own report states that % of car commuters is expected to increase after the road is built! So much for freeing up roads for PT. With all this in mind I would be very surprised if this road survives the upcoming court cases and gets funded by the government of the day.

cgcsb · 05-05-2022 3:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119019616#Comment_119019616

Less people driving and more people cycling and taking public transport is not a reduction in quality of life though. Indeed its a social, health and economic boost to the population.

If we had a functional programme for retrofitting homes, turf would also not be an issue beyond the tiny number of people who sell it.

As for the developing world not doing anything, you're talking about countries where emissions per head are a fraction of what they are in Europe, the same countries have less budgetary freedom to make big changes.

05-05-2022 3:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119019616#Comment_119019616

All you'll get is politicians being elected at the next election being elected to undo all this

Thankfully, the way the climate action legislation has been setup and approved by all parties (only a handful of independents voted against it) means that regardless of who is in power, the plans have to be adhered to as they have been setup to be multi-term. Any govt looking to roll back will find themselves blocked by the courts. The legislation has literally been designed this way because the situation is too serious to allow short term populism to derail it.

As for the hatred towards various policies, it all depends on your perspective. For example, cycling infrastructure seems to boil the blood of motorists, but I think the pic below sums up the logic behind that anger. As for the users of said infrastructure, take any location around the world where a network of protected cycling infrastructure has been put in, and you'll see a significant shift towards that mode.

Regarding turf, it forms part of the Sept ban coming for polluting fuel sources (wet wood, smoky coal & turf) and so will be implemented regardless of what anyone says. It was supposed to be implemented for smoky coal in 2019 however threatened legal action stopped it as the govt were only targeting certain polluting solid fuels (smoky coal) but excluding all others. The new ban covers all of the worst offenders and simply put, its an all or nothing implementation. There may be mitigations implemented alongside it, like the removal of the PSI levy when they increased the carbon tax, but it will still be implemented.

As for cars themselves, all govt policy docs & reports for the last 3-4 years show a marked shift towards putting the private car at the bottom of the list of infrastructure users with all other modes taking precedence. This is not going to change and in fact is only going to become more and more pronounced.

Aontachtoir · 05-05-2022 8:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119019410#Comment_119019410

Do you believe that the bypass is solely to cater for people who are trying to bypass the city? Is the M50 only travelled by traffic travelling from Wexford to Belfast?

How on earth is pointing out that the GCRR will have next to no impact on the global climate whataboutery? If someone opposes the GCRR on climate grounds, they have to show that the GCRR would have a significant impact on the global climate. It simply won't. On a global scale, any potential increase in emissions from the road would be a drop in an ocean. Telling Galwegians they can't have opportunities that other countries are seizing without hesitation just doesn't make sense.

As for your comment on quality of life, different people might have different ideas of what constitutes quality of life. Being able to cycle sounds great, but being able to drive quickly, easily, and safely to my destination and park right outside the door (especially if it is cold, dark, or raining outside) sounds just as good, if not better.

@[Deleted User]

Climate plans only have to be adhered to as long as the government says they do. Climate legislation is not entrenched in the Constitution (thankfully), and a new government in a new Oireachtas can repeal or modify climate laws as easily as they were enacted. The courts can not and will not stop the Oireachtas from repealing or amending legislation outside the Constitution, as that is the right of the Oireachtas.

Given the track record of the current main opposition party in relation to the environment, I would be very surprised if you believe they will pay the electoral price of enacting tough climate policies.

05-05-2022 8:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119020848#Comment_119020848

I guess we'll have to wait and see

Aontachtoir · 05-05-2022 8:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119020857#Comment_119020857

Sure, we have to wait and see what eventually happens in Galway, but we don't have to wait and see whether a future government has to stick to the climate legislation currently in force. We know right now that they can alter or repeal it as they see fit, and as there are no plans to amend the constitution there is no reason to expect that situation will change.

05-05-2022 8:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119020868#Comment_119020868

We'll have to wait and see

cgcsb · 05-05-2022 11:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119020848#Comment_119020848

Do I believe that it will be used only by traffic bypassing Galway? No of course not and that's the point. It's just another commuter road encouraging people to drive short distances when we should be discouraging such car trips.

Sorry this is hilarious:

"If someone opposes the GCRR on climate grounds, they have to show that the GCRR would have a significant impact on the global climate" that's just not how things work. There is no engineering project in the whole world that, by its self, has a significant impact on global climate. There is obviously no need to prove something that is untrue, simply because you chose ignorance. By your logic we should all go put in boats and catch all the fish because nobody can say that one particular boat made the fish extinct. Pure head in the sand nonsense.

A high quality of life generally means good health and you can't have good health in a population of mostly office workers that drive everywhere its statistically worse for society, the USA is well and truly down that road and look where its brought them.

You're kidding yourself if you think any government is going to reverse environmental legislation given the internationally binding targets we've no set and the most recent research that says we have 4 or 5 years to avoid catastrophic climate change. You'll be happy though sitting in the new desert saying, well at least that thing I fought so hard far was only x% of the problem.

Aontachtoir · 06-05-2022 1:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021658#Comment_119021658

Yes, the GCRR will not have a significant effect on the global climate.

If you don't believe the GCRR will only be used by people bypassing Galway, why do you keep referencing that figure in your claims that the road is not needed?

I think we have a pretty good quality of life at the moment. The Americans, Canadians, Australians, and Kiwis I've met who drive everywhere all the time also seem pretty happy too. You can drive everywhere and have a perfectly good quality of life - cycling and walking to work are not necessary.

You're kidding yourself if you think the current opposition party are going to impose anything that could be called a carbon tax, ban turf, or cancel road projects if they get into power. Separately, there is no external power that is going to march into Ireland if we don't meet our voluntary targets. Otherwise the US, China, Russia, etc would be first for punishment.

06-05-2022 2:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119021873#Comment_119021873

Annnnnd again, the climate action plan, carbon budgets, carbon tax etc have been setup to have a legal framework around them.

They will be implemented, for the most part, as planned. There can be tweaking but wholesale reversal will not be happening as the govt of the day will lose in court.

The current climate action plans are literally due to the govt losing a case over how rubbish the previous iteration was. It was a unanimous verdict by the Supreme Court that sent the govt back to the drawing board to redo the entire plan.

https://www.friendsoftheirishenvironment.org/climate-case

Thinking the likes of SF are going to be the great saviours of the likes of this road is flawed seeing as they fully supported all the climate legislation when it came time to vote for it.

Sam Russell · 06-05-2022 1:37pm

Mod: I think the idea that Galway can exempt itself from the global or national aim to cut down on carbon emissions because it is not going to be noticed is not really part of the thread and is off topic.

Aontachtoir · 06-05-2022 4:40pm

I agree, which makes it hard to see why other posts claiming the GCRR should be cancelled on climate policy grounds are on topic either.

timmyntc · 06-05-2022 4:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119024519#Comment_119024519

The Irish governments own climate policies are a very real threat to the GCRR project and may result in it not going ahead.

If it does go ahead, it will be in spite of those policies, but certainly not because "shur its only Galway, what difference will that have compared to China and India"

spacetweek · 06-05-2022 8:22pm

People keep talking about the fact that most traffic wouldn't bypass Galway completely on this road but the main reason it's being built is due to the lack of road capacity connecting West Galway with East Galway (i.e. Knocknacarra-Ballybrit).

Maybe a new distributor really is all that's needed, but this could have been avoided by making the bypass 4 lanes + 2 bus lanes back in the 1990s like they should have.

M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

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