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US Supreme Court to overturn Roe vs Wade

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,067 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    There is a big difference between that and people trying to stop Congress from doing what is law to do. I suspect you do know that



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,156 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Nope, thats called a coalition.


    The American "system" applied here would mean the people of Leitrim got to elect 20 TD's to the dail, while Dublin only elected 4 TD's.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,182 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The January 6 insurrection was not a single or localized incident. Multiple states and their political parties were involved in the autocoup, including efforts by the White House and members of Congress to recruit additional state governments in their efforts (eg. The Secretary of State of Georgia). Nor was it the only violent event. Violence and disruption of democratic process erupted at and even inside multiple ballot counting facilities between November and January. January 6, and specifically, the Electoral Count, merely served as the climax.

    So I don't see what the fuss you think there is here that there was a skirmish of police running over people in LA. I think I predicted this earlier, that some people are dying for a window to get broken or a building to get burned so they have something to crow about.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    Personally Im Pro choice but ultimately roe vs wade was a mistake. There wasn't really anything in the US constitution permitting abortion.

    It should be decided state by state.

    The best approach is an amendment to the constitution. For pro choice groups

    Actually while they are at they could try getting rid of the electoral college



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,182 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The 2 election systems are very different; we don't do ranked choice voting.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,067 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    I think you are getting a bit confused there with terms and house elections. Bigger states get to elect more members to the Congress then smaller ones due to size. The Senate is meant to be a more equal chamber for all with each state regardless of size gets to elect 2 senators each. Not 100% on the exact reason.


    So Dublin would still be able to elect more TDs then Leitrim maybe even more if we go by how many tds per 1000 if we went by American rule, but each would have 2 senators


    Coalition is a different thing which we have due to PR and the amount of parties



  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Sean.3516


    Ah yes, the "attempted coup" by a bunch of bozos in horned helmets that had no institutional support and was put down within hours of starting with the election being certified the very same day. The rioters killed no cops with the only person dying on the day being a rioter. (I'm not complaining about that by the way.)

    As a history buff I can tell you America has had numerous insurrections in its past virtually all of which came closer to succeeding than the farce that took place on Jan 6th. In fact, insurrections in the US are MORE of a "norm" than what took place here. As the original Politico article says "no draft decision in the modern history of the court has been disclosed publicly while a case was still pending."

    "while a case was still pending" is the key part. The only reason you leak an opinion while the case is pending is to influence the outcome. I think we can say this undermines the legitimacy of an independent judiciary.

    As for the right being the ones who leaked it.... Yes it seems like a great idea to leak an opinion of a pending decision that you support that will no doubt lead to pressure tactics against the justices planning to vote for it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    With the ruling there is nothing to stop the republicans from bringing in a federal law that covers all states making abortion illegal. The door is also open for states to criminalise those who go to other states to seek abortions

    There isn't anything in the US constitution permitting a lot of things, for example marriage equality - be it on the basis of gender or race



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,067 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    The getting rid of the electoral college (which I feel will happen) then one on abortion



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,156 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Probably misphrased it a bit but the main flaw in the american democracy is that it completely over-values the votes/voices from people in smaller states. Not every citizens votes are equal.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,182 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Well then is hasn't worked, clearly, since a party which has often held a slim majority has taken out people from the opposite party at a whim.

    They purposefully, for a year, left the court at 8 seats so their slim majority could go nuclear and use their slim majority, under trump, to fill up the bench with lifetime stooges. When Scalia died the court still stood in control by Republican appointees: Kennedy, Chief Justice Roberts, Thomas, Alito, vs Breyer, Sotomayor, Ginsburg, Kagan. And I say majority because the Chief Justice still bears functional control of the issues the Court takes up in large part, and during this time most 4-4 split decisions favored conservatism.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,067 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    That will be the next battle after this same sex marriage and will be more bolden after the suspected gains they would now get if the November elections were run now.

    The problem with the Constitution is not what isn't written in it but how it was written. The founding fathers always believed the constitution should change in time depending on the times and people would be smart enough to do it, but that was before party politics really became a thing



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,182 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Ah yes, the "attempted coup" by a bunch of bozos in horned helmets that had no institutional support

    Please stop the blatant misinformation.




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Rioters injured hundreds of cops, one died during the attack, and others have taken their lives afterwards. As a history buff, can you tell me how many of those insurrections were actively supported by the spouse of a sitting SCJ?

    That politico article isn't accurate, there have been plenty of leaks from SCOTUS - sure the original Roe v Wade was leaked in advance.

    It does seem like a great idea by the right if either a) one or more of the justices were having second thoughts or were pushing back on the contents of the draft or b) they wanted to distract, feign outrage, and play the victim about the leak to take away from the expected backlash of the content - just like you are doing now. How much the biggest right wing media outlets are playing down the decision says the latter is very likely, they know this is going to be hated by the wider public and want anything else to distract.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,067 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    The only way they do that really is the electoral college IMO which I believe should change



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Never happening - why would the turkeys vote for christmas? Republicans fight every effort to support voter's rights, they are never going to change a rigged system that is the only thing giving them any chance of power.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,067 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    First of all they did not take out anyone they just did not vote someone in big difference. If the Democrats thought they could do that the would. I do not think you be complaining on here. As for the lifetime on the Supreme Court that has been a thing for a lot longer then Trump so not something he came up with. I agree it's bad but even if you put a time limit on them it still be bias on who is but there be it be by president, Congress, or some board. And again you would not give 1 flying f of time limits if it was your guy with your political bias



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    Society changes. Rules change.

    It will take time but the electoral college will go.

    Not necessarily replaced by a straight vote either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,067 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    If it loses them the president a few times they might. Each will try to rig it (Democrats no angels either if they can) to there own design



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,741 ✭✭✭uptherebels




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,182 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    First of all they did not take out anyone they just did not vote someone in big difference. 

    No not at all. In US Politics this tactic even has a name, it's called Borking.


    If the Democrats thought they could do that the would. I do not think you be complaining on here. [...] And again you would not give 1 flying f of time limits if it was your guy with your political bias

    This is a counterfactual. I'm an Independent, I'm not a Two Parties fan, I'm a No Parties fan (or at least a Ranked Choice fan, sheesh, America). Neither was John Adams, an OG Originalist if you will:

    "Time limits" weren't the issue, but rather the large amount of work the Supreme Court undertook that resulted in split decisions that should have otherwise been decided one way or the other.



  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Sean.3516


    The Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment: "nor shall any State ... deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws". Cited in Loving v. Virginia (1967) which decided that interracial marriage bans were unconstitutional.

    The US Constitution doesn't "permit" people to do anything. It assumes pre-existing natural rights in accordance with Common Law. It permits the government to do only what the Constitution says it can. Anything else (unless the Constitution says otherwise about it) is a state issue.

    This is why abortion will still be legal in California and New York if Roe V Wade is overturned.

    If the Dems are worried about a federal law banning abortion, why don't they enact a federal law guaranteeing abortion rights? Oh that's right, they don't have the votes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,182 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The effort to begin overturning other rights not explicitly enumerated in gold leaf now begins.

    Obergefell v Hodges was decided under Chief Justice Roberts.

    Kennedy, joined by Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor, Kagan, held the majority decision. Roberts, Scalia, Thomas and Alito all wrote and supported each others own dissenting opinions.

    Now: Chief Roberts, Thomas, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh and Barrett may change their minds and say that the Roberts court was "egregious and wrong" - hey wait



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭TooTired123


    Why are Irish people so upset about this?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,182 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The Census is used to apportion House of Representatives members among the several states counting the whole number of persons and dividing it across the 435 seats with a minimum of 1 per state, for the District of Columbia, for Puerto Rico, etc.

    Those are 2 year terms.

    Senators are 2 per member State (50) and its so devised and staggered that 1/3rd of Senators are up for re-election every 2 years; each term is 6 years.

    More details are spelled out in Article I (Except were amended, eg. the Enumeration Clause now reads from Amendment XIV).




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,182 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment: "nor shall any State ... deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws". Cited in Loving v. Virginia (1967) which decided that interracial marriage bans were unconstitutional.


    The US Constitution doesn't "permit" people to do anything. It assumes pre-existing natural rights in accordance with Common Law. It permits the government to do only what the Constitution says it can. Anything else (unless the Constitution says otherwise about it) is a state issue.

    Does the law protect mens right to the privacy and dignity choose what medical decisions they make?

    It seems that if the laws protect the rights of one sex but not the other then the law is plainly unconstitutional on a straight reading of the Equal Protection Clause.

    Otherwise what would prevent Congress from declaring interracial marriage was illegal? They still would have every right to marry anyone they wanted who was the same race as them, after all, isn't that "Equal Protection?" /s

    I think men saying "I don't have a right to an abortion so neither do you" is not only a really sophomoric take but a terrible precedent that would upend jurisprudence and open the door for all manner of discrimination as long as everyone was technically 'subject to' the same law that only injures the discriminated persons (eg. Trans Athletes and laws rules or regulations that ban trans athletes in competition)



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Nearly every justice who is now voting to overturn Roe v Wade said it was settled law during their confirmations, yet they are now working to overturn it. Everything is free game in that case - be it Loving, Obergefell, or anything else.

    Not sure what the point of the rest of your post is - I have repeatedly made it clear across many posts regarding the issue of a federal law. I have consistently disagreed with posters who have called for abolishing the filibuster, even if they have the votes unless it is accompanied with massive reforms of the system and SCOTUS. Even if they had the votes now given the rigged system the most likely thing long term is that the republicans will get far worse things over the line in a few years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Many live in the US or have families there so the decision directly impacts them.

    Others given their posting record in other threads and terminology they use just get a very weird pleasure from attacking anything they deem as 'woke' or 'liberal', which apparently includes the rights women in the US have over their bodies.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,067 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    Thanks very much. Knew it was something in that way but was not sure



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  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I rarely post here anymore, and the US is a clown show, but…

    the electoral college is going nowhere because the bias in the electoral college is manifest in how the constitution is changed.

    “An amendment may be proposed by a two-thirds vote of both Houses of Congress, or, if two-thirds of the States request one, by a convention called for that purpose. The amendment must then be ratified by three-fourths of the State legislatures, or three-fourths of conventions called in each State for ratification.”

    That is a bigger bias on favour of small states than the electoral college itself, so why would turkeys vote for Christmas? The electoral college has a small bias in favour of smaller States in any case, it’s the senate elections where there is a really big bias - Montana has the same representation as California with less than 2% of the population.


    But that is by design, the senate represents the States, the House of Representatives represents the popular will. In fact at the beginning senators were chosen by state legislatures not by popular vote. That didn’t change until 1913.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't understand how a potential overturn in caselaw such as Roe v. Wade has such a opiniated outcry here.It has no effect for any of you on these shores. Granted a few posters jump at the chance to ridicule the US policies. But it shows a bit of hypocrisy as your ducks aren't in a row on some instances.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    There's a branch of thought in Ireland that looks to American liberals for their cues, no suprise that the likes of Alan Kelly cut their teeth with Hilary Clintons camp.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Plenty of us have friends and family in the US.... And honestly, developed nations regressing in this way is something I would take note of, be it in the US, Poland or elsewhere. It's destabilising in the same way that Trump destabilised.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    I don't understand why people jump into a thread that they don't care about to question why people care about it.

    It's a discussion forum.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭Ush1




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  • Registered Users Posts: 202 ✭✭supermans ghost


    I’m curious, what would be your position on the death penalty be it here or in the USA.



  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Sean.3516


    There is no right to privacy in the US Constitution. The Roe V Wade decision concocted one out of whole cloth based on the 4th and 9th amendments. Those deal with "unreasonable search and seizure" and unenumerated rights. Nothing to do with a generalised right to privacy that Roe based abortion rights on. It's not even clear what a right to "privacy" means since privacy means different things in different contexts.

    Men like women have no right to undergo "medical procedures" that intentionally result in the killing of another human being. The other problem with Roe is that it doesn't even bother to address whether abortion kills a human being (which is the rationale for laws against abortion.)

    You haven't bothered to address this either. If you think a law protecting innocent human life at the cost of individual autonomy (just like every law against murder) shouldn't exist then you have to argue why that life isn't worthy of protection. (Or why that which I'm calling a life isn't a life). Pro-choicers have no interest in doing this. They do an end-run around the argument by just writing the whole thing off as a "private medical decision".

    You shouldn't even think about arguing from the Equal Protection Clause until you've addressed those questions.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,606 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Abortion doesn't result in the killing of a human being. This is just more right wing misinformation.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,211 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    It’s true that any changes in law in the US in relation to some of these issues may have no direct impact on anyone here in Ireland, but, the relationship between laws in the US, and laws in Ireland, and how one influences the other, is unquestionable.

    If you look into the background of what led to the 8th Amendment in Ireland, it was directly influenced by the decision in Roe v Wade for example -


    As per sections 58 and 59 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861abortion was already illegal in Ireland. However, anti-abortion campaigners feared the possibility of a judicial ruling in favour of allowing abortion. In McGee v. Attorney General (1973), the Supreme Court of Ireland had ruled against provisions of the Criminal Law Amendment Act 1935 prohibiting the sale and importation of contraception on the grounds that the reference in Article 41 to the "imprescriptable rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law" of the family conferred upon spouses a broad right to privacy in marital affairs.

    The Pro-Life Amendment Campaign (PLAC) was founded in 1981 to campaign against a ruling in Ireland similar to Roe v. Wade. Prior to the 1981 general election, PLAC lobbied the major Irish political parties – Fianna FáilFine Gael and the Labour Party – to urge the introduction of a Bill to allow the amendment to the constitution to prevent the Irish Supreme Court so interpreting the constitution as giving a right to abortion. The leaders of the three parties – respectively Charles HaugheyGarret FitzGerald and Frank Cluskey – agreed although there was little consultation with any of their parties' ordinary members. All three parties were in government over the following eighteen months, but it was only in late 1982, just before the collapse of a Fianna Fáil minority government, that a proposed wording for the amendment was produced.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

    http://constitutionproject.ie/?p=717


    Personally, I think it’s premature to be getting excited about the contents of a draft opinion, but at the same time I know that whatever the outcomes of any decision, it will undoubtedly influence attitudes to abortion in Ireland as a consequence of influencing attitudes to abortion in the US.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    So the difference between a foetus and a baby is one is inside the body and the other is out?

    Is a foetus meaningless? Why are companies giving compassionate leave for miscarriages? Sure they have nothing to be upset over surely, if it's just a meaningless foetus? Why are death certs giving for dead foetii?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Sean.3516


    Feel free to explain why I'm wrong. It's why we're here. This ain't Twitter so use as many words as you want.

    What is an abortion? What does it result in?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,606 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    the deliberate termination of a human pregnancy, most often performed during the first 28 weeks of pregnancy.

    No mention of killing a human being there.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Do you know what really irks me most about this, is that the thing the conservatives are pissed off about is someone made a decision to release an opinion against the wishes of the body (lol) that has the fundemental right to make that decision.

    Like, the f*cking irony, lads.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,606 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    What gets me is that they turned into a bunch of toxic crybabies when asked to wear a piece of cloth over their mouths while spouting bollox about the right to bodily autonomy.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Ah, you want to play that game.

    I don't have a low opinion of those who have different views to mine, I have a low opinion of those who seek to deflect and chat inane sh*te with zero evidence or zero basis to back up said sh*te while celebrating 'owning the libs'.

    People can have all of the views they want, but I'm allowed to challenge them and have a discussion about it. If others decide they don't want to partake in said discussion in good faith, then that's on them.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,213 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    But it never loses them the Presidency though.

    A GOP candidate has never won the popular vote and lost the election.

    They have however lost the popular vote and won the White House multiple times .

    The GOP have only won the Popular vote for President once in the last 30+ years (GWB in 2004) and likely never will again given the demographic and population shifts in the US.

    The GOP will never ever support changing the Electoral college from it's current format - except of course their current attempts to allow GOP controlled States to over-rule results they don't like and send forward their preferred electors regardless of the will of the people.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,213 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    The rapid "balkanisation" of the US States that will come about if this comes to pass will have large global repercussions.

    If this passes , these same fringe players (the white evangelicals) will go after Gay Marriage Equality and Contraception next as they have already clearly espoused.

    Today, there are some differences between the States in terms of laws but all mostly manageable, but this has the power to make those differences absolutely huge and just drive further and further divisions between Blue and Red States.

    The collapse of the US as a functional unified entity absolutely categorically matters to the rest of the world.



  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Sean.3516


    I don't disagree at all with your provided definition of abortion, so cleverly procured from Apple Dictionary.

    But I never said abortion was DEFINED as "the killing of a human being". I said it RESULTED in "the killing of a human being".

    That said, my claim withstands this definition of abortion. How does one deliberately terminate a pregnancy? They remove the foetus/unborn human from the womb. How does one do that? By either administering mifepristone and misoprostol if in 1st trimester. Pills which cause the foetus/unborn human to die and be expelled from the womb. If too late for that suction and curettage is used. The foetus/unborn human is physically destroyed and removed by use of a suction device and a tool called a "curette".

    All of these result in the "termination of pregnancy" as your definition says an abortion is. They not only result in but require the killing of the unborn human being involved.

    Your definition mentions abortions usually take place within 28 weeks of pregnancy.

    This is a human being that was born after 22 weeks of pregnancy.

    Do you agree that this is a human being? Would it still be a human being were it located inside the womb and/or potentially aborted? If not, then what's the difference?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,182 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Is that you, Tucker Carlson?


    Googled your questions, first thing that came up it's a commemorative cert that some places offer. They're done only at request.

    What is a Certificate of Stillbirth?


    A Certificate of Stillbirth is a document issued by the State Vital Records Office only. It may be issued at the request of a parent of a stillborn fetus that reached at least twenty weeks gestation and died before birth. It is a commemorative document acknowledging the stillbirth. The certificate records the name of the stillborn child, the date and place of the delivery, and the parents’ names. It is also imprinted with the official state seal. The document cannot be used to prove identity, or for any other legal purpose.

    And?



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