Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Comparing Jackson favorably to Carbery is to damn him with faint praise. Carbery is still about promise in green, though like Jackson he has put in some solidly unspectacular performances.

He one billion percent did. Jackson was a key player for Ulster, an established H Cup 10, solid international player and a perfectly adequate backup to Sexton. He could also control a game.

Madigan has failed to nail down the 10 shirt at every club he's played for. 10s he's failed to surpass include Jimmy Gopperth, Callum Sheedy and Billy Burns. So any argument that Madigan was anything more than an ok Pro12/URC out half falls flat on it's face.

It's nothing to do with Schmidt, there isn't a coach in the world who'd have been picking Jackson over Sexton in February 2017.

My beef here is that people aren't comparing Carbery to Jackson, they're comparing Carbery to a romanticised version of Jackson, or to what Jackson would have become if only... saying he was rivalling Sexton for first choice just isn't true and it's not a fair yardstick for Carbery.

On that tour in 2016, Jackson was very good in the first test, OK in the second and rubbish in the third. That's the reality but somehow in the intervening period his performances have improved massively. He showed he'd be a decent backup and no more, exactly what Carbery is today.

IM not that interested in this debate tbh, but how is Jackson more than a Pro 12/URC standard 10 given his record since those halcyon days of 2017 when Ulster came last in their HC group on ten points? Perpinan finished bottom in his year there. He's won nothing and played in a series of second rate teams in the meantime. Nothing wrong with that but the idea that Jackson is better that the second string in Ireland behind Sexton is hallucinatory, whatever about Madigan. He might have become that if he hadn't derailed his career but lots of players with potential don't end up realizing it.

He's pretty good for LI but as we've seen in the HC, the prem is fairly equivalent to the URC, if its even that level at the moment. I'd put the top 4 teams in the URC up against the top 4 in the prem anytime. And teams that are in the bottom half of the the prem aren't great. Again, Jackson was promising but I don't think he's proven to be above any of the group behind Sexton. I'm not doing the player down, he's a fine rugby player but on here there are some roses tinted glasses that seem to be saying he was there or thereabouts with Sexton before he left Ireland and that's just not true. He was Carbery/RB level without the injuries.

nope sorry he was (is?) miles above carbery and RB (who doesnt get enough credit tbh). if he starts the QF in 2015 ireland win imo. hes the only 10 other than sexton since ROG that had enough tactical nous and game management ability to be a contender for a starting spot. again, bit unfair on RB here since hes been unlucky with his starts for ireland in fairness to him. if sexton hadnt come back in the 2017 6N and PJ stayed in the starting team it would have been pretty close between them from then on. obviously what happened happened and its all a bit moot, but its also untrue to deny that PJ was coming into great form before everything else happened and he was could have been pushing to be a regular starter for ireland

i dont see how all the other 10s mentioned are better options as back up 10s. why are they?

Carbery has had injury issues no doubt but he has earned his place in the set up. He isnt automatically in at 22 anyway.

Crowley has done well for a guy playing his first season of proxx games. Only making his first start last October and first european start in December but he isnt near Carbery and as much as id like to see Ben Healy be involved for Ireland a lot he is behind Carbery right now.

by virtue of them actually being 10s rather than 15s playing 10 theyre better options

Ross Byrne - hugely underratted and has been shafted by his only real starts for ireland being against dominant england teams. probably should be back up to JS but the hype around his brother has meant he has somehow leapfrogged him in the ireland pecking order but not with leinster

Jack Carty - shafted also by getting the majority of the blame for the rwc loss against japan rather than the abysmal referring and decent japanese play. has been up and down since then but definitely has the ability to do a very good job at 10, would be interesting to see him playing with a better team tbh. has been overhyped this season most definitely but id have him as 3rd choice atm personally

Harry Byrne - hasn't done enough to warrant the hype around him imo. hes a natural 10 though so if he can get a run of meaningful/euro games for leinster he might come back into the ireland fold. would personally have him at around the same level as carbery atm

Ben Healy - deserves to be Munster's starting 10. showing his attacking game more this season and has always been able to control the game well from 10. massive boot too obviously but would like to see him be a bit more picky about which long range ones he goes for. should be in the ireland frame at this stage but his development has been massively stalled since carbery walks back into the team whenever hes not injured

Jack Crowley - could be above Ben Healy even but hes barely been seen due to the same problem of JC being a guaranteed starter.

one of BH or JC is surely going to move in the next year or two if carbery is blocking the way. obviously JC was being courted by La Rochelle and BH would walk into the scotland squad if he did go to glasgow. this persisting with carbery as the automatic starting 10 may mean munster could lose one or even two of their best prospects at 10 since ROG. thats not even mentioning bill johnston, JJ, Jake Flannery............

as i said in a previous post, i really dont think carbery has done much to earn a guaranteed place in the set up. and it is more or less guaranteed, he was poor in the summer, poor in the handful of games he had for munster at the start of the season and he walked straight into the squad without really deserving it (granted, he was okay against NZ)

The "Ross Byrne is so underrated" narrative has been pushed so hard at this stage that he has now become massively overrated

He's URC level. Does the job Leinster want from him, stands deep and distributes to better players outside him, but he shouldn't be in the conversation for Ireland squads

Ross Byrne has guided us through a number of Champions Cup games as well. Saying he’s URC standard is doing the guy a disservice. He is better than that. His ceiling would appear to be provincial level, so I’d agree he isn’t a Test level 10. But he’s better than you’re making him out to be.

I’ll never understand why some Leinster fans want to run the guy down given everything he has done for us. It’s bizarre.

Ross Byrne has started and won a ton of European games, including absolutely hockeying Toulouse in the RDS a couple of seasons ago. They scored a last minute try to make it look like even less of a hammering. Remember him nailing that conversion/penalty on one leg against Ulster, I think in the game Leavy got injured. He has performed many many times at European level.

Edit - I actually thought this was the Leinster not the Ireland thread, I don't really think he's the answer for Ireland, but he's a very good player.

Would Healy walk into the Scotland squad if he moved to Glasgow or Edinburgh? They have Finn Russell and Adam Hastings who are both pretty good.