Fall of the Catholic Church

The Church IS providing a service though, they’re providing education, and just like every other Patron who meets the criteria to qualify for public funding, the Church isn’t any different in that regard.

The greatest difference between the Bishops of Ireland (who are the patron body for RC schools), and the other patrons who provide education as service to Irish society, is that purely by virtue of their number of schools, the RC are the largest provider of education.

It’s really the DES that makes the rules, enforces the rules, and signs the cheques according to the budget allocated to them by the Minister for Finance. When the Government are willing to lease the schools from the RC instead of just purchasing them outright, then I don’t blame anyone for wondering are the Government serious about this whole divestment idea at all, or are they just quite literally kicking the can down the road -

https://www.breakingnews.ie/amp/ireland/government-will-pay-church-to-rent-schools-that-become-multi-denominational-1272633.html

I’m not sure what you’re driving at then PB because the education being provided more than meets the requirements, and given what little provisions the Government make for education, the State is getting far more than what it’s paying for -

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119012783#Comment_119012783

Which referendum was that Princess? I travel a lot, and may have missed it.

I was thinking more in line of local referenda, if you like. Do local polls in the catchment areas of the schools. That would certainly clarify things, as to who wants what in terms of diversification etc. That constitutional change removed the special place that the Church had, yes. But I would not think that is the quite the same thing as saying that the Church would have to withdraw 100% from all its activities in the state, no?

Doesn't matter - if it's not constitutional, it doesn't need public approval. Just needs a government go and do it.

They pass unpopular laws without public consultation all the time - MUP recently, for example.

I take your point about local authority (although I'm not sure if a local referendum is a) possible; or b) legally binding), but I think it world create to many loopholes and precedents - it world have to be national.

Well, first regarding the referendum that separated the powers of Church and State, that was a good thing...in any Country. I've worked in far too many Country's governed by sharia Law, ( now there's a serious example of religious interference in education!!! ) and while there may be some positive points to it, overall, its not a good system of governance.

Here in Ireland we have school associations, made up of Parents and Teachers committees, who co-ordinate and organize themselves regarding school issues and events. I think anyway ( rightly or wrongly) that a lot of the resistance to change is not necessarily coming from the Church, but from the local people themselves. So if there was agreement across the board by all, then everything should be OK. Removing religion from the schools, especially in rural areas is not going to go down well, and I'd say that one reason why the changeover is taking so long is because of local resistance, and non-clerical at that. For all of the talk about religion being on the way out in Ireland, and for sure church going Nrs have dropped, but now you get committed Catholics. The Church is far from dead and gone in Ireland,,,,but anytime they stick their heads above the rampart's, BANG. Easy non-retaliatory target. Anyway, that's my take on it.

But religion is not being removed from schools - its being moved to a non-curricular status.

And I don't believe there is the support you say there is - if there is, why are the churches not full every Sunday?

The main difference between the church as patron and secular bodies as patron is the unending enthusiasm to indoctrinate people to pay lip service to their particular religion.

Oop's !!!! Missing a full stop or two there Princess LOL.. It was a reply to Hotblack, referencing you.😂 But don't worry, I'm sure he understands ( Hotblack, that is.......)

No one suggested banning religion.

Ahh right, I get what you mean now. I didn’t before, because the Church meets all the rules required of Patron bodies who wish to qualify for public funding. When you said this -

That’s just not how it works. The State provides for education, and it does so through the patronage system. The State isn’t requesting that education with no religion is required. At most what they are requesting is that the school must be recognised by the State, must have an ethos, and must teach the national curriculum.

The State makes no distinction whatsoever as to whether a patron is religious or secular. It doesn’t endorse any particular religion either, but it does allow in their admission policies for minority faiths to discriminate in favouring members of their own religion without restrictions. Majority faiths are only permitted to discriminate in their admissions policies under certain conditions, such as in order to maintain the ethos of the school.

Seems a rather obvious point to make Andrew? I wouldn’t call it a difference though, because secular bodies don’t endorse any particular religion, nor do they seek to indoctrinate anyone into religion.

Educate Together however, in particular, is unending in it’s enthusiasm for paying lip service to all religions and none. The other secular bodies such as Secular Schools Ireland don’t pay lip service to any religion at all.

Still the main difference in terms of their patronage is the sheer numbers of schools each patron body has under it’s patronage.

And these are the bits that need to change.

Patrons should be secular and the State should insists that "no religion" IS a requirement.

That’s not going to happen though as not only would it be repugnant to the Constitution, ‘twould violate international human rights laws too. The only solution realistically speaking is for the State to fund the establishment of more secular schools, and that’s not going to happen any time soon while the DES makes the rules that if there are enough places in existing schools in an area, they’re not going to build another school.

Based on what I experienced in North Kerry. WW2 was very good for Irish farmers if you could grow it there was no difficulty selling it. This was the base for continued growth when the war ended in 1945. Starting around 1950 there was an exodus of 15 to 20 year olds mostly to England but also the wider English speaking world. The crisis as reported on RTE and the newspapers was that even large towns were unable to put together GAA teams for both junior football and hurling. It was about this time that the politicians were woken up to the fact that people were concerned about depopulation as it caused declining property values and abandoned houses as well as houses used for only a few weeks a year. The shopkeepers were in a state of shock. Serious attempts were made to recuscitate the economy. Secondary education was geared to a career in religion with an emphasis on Latin and Classical Greek as well as Gaelic. This shifted to STEM over about 15 years. The major change came after the January 1972 referendum on entry to EU which passed with 83% in favour. The signing on ceremony was held in May 1972. Essentially the EU successfully used bribery and threats to kick Ireland out of its not so genteel poverty. The fact that 3 out 5 people had worked abroad also helped. I did not see much evidence that priests ruled the roost. My mother in the 1960's used to say the feckin priests are becoming worse than politicians in soliciting donations. She was a business woman and my father was a bag man (collected donations) for one of the natural governing political parties. An interesting fact is that when his Party was out of office he also interceded to pass funds to the party in power for favours required. I would say attending mass every Sunday was a matter of keeping up appearances and an ingrained habit which began to erode in the 1950s. In Canada where I am now the Irish, French Canadians and Italians make up the bulk of the Catholics. The Catholics have a right to their own primary and secondary schools. Women are the main source of support. For example my daughter manoeuvred her son into the best school in the city which is a Catholic Choir School associated with a Cathedral. The school was founded by a priest from Tipperary in 1937 the Cardinal is also an Irish descendant. My grandson started practicing piano at 3 years and singing lessons at 4 to get into a class of 23 with 2600 applicants. The Catholic Church was positive on balance in Ireland in that many of us went on to very good careers built on our Primary and Secondary church schooling. I should add that in Canada STEM subjects are mandatory and the amount of time devoted to religion is about 20% of the whole although language and history tend to be blended in. We should all be down on our knees thanking God for the EU. In my case the Irish and French Canadians carved out prosperous and happy lives for themselves from 1867 onwards from which I have benefited.

I’m not particularly religious and have no desire to weigh into this argument too deeply. All I’ll say is that I attended my eldest niece’s confirmation yesterday and it was genuinely wonderful.

There were almost 80 young girls making their confirmation from the school. Talking to my brother, very few parents opted out. The church was thronged with parents, young children, grandparents, and extended family. The age range was from grandparents in their 70s, down to toddlers, with quite a few heavily pregnant mothers. The bishop delivered a very articulate, almost entertaining sermon. The young girls were thrilled and were all queuing up for pictures with the bishop after the mass.

Afterwards, my extended family went for dinner. It was terrific for me and my four siblings to get together. We have eight kids between us and counting. The young cousins had great craic playing together outside.

Throughout the day, there was a great sense of community and pride. Families coming together for their little girl’s special day. Whatever opinions people have about the church and religion, it simply didn’t matter. Frankly, the entire occasion was terrific and a wonderful antidote to the gnawing cynicism and nihilism so present these days.