Ariel parts query?

Mr321 · 10-05-2022 11:43pm #1

The box on the outdoor ariels can these be bought in a shop or is it only ariel installer has them.

Most of the time lately all the English and BBC NI channels are jumping all over the place with bad or no signal. Has to be that transmitter box on my English station ariel?

Schorpio · 11-05-2022 12:09am

Whereabouts (roughly) are you? Are you receiving overspill terrestrial from the North? I'm presuming so, and that you aren't using a satellite dish to receive the UK stations.

There's no such thing as a 'transmitter box' on either an aerial or a satellite. If you are using an aerial (and not a dish) to receive the stations, there generally shouldn't be any 'boxes' anywhere along the cable between the aerial and the cable that feeds your set-top box or TV. Do you have any other TVs in the house, and are they all showing the same issues?

The Cush · 11-05-2022 12:12am

Masthead amp maybe? Is there a power supply for the masthead amp somewhere inside?

https://www.freetv.ie/saorview/amplifiers/

Where are you located?

Mr321 · 11-05-2022 7:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119044189#Comment_119044189

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119044201#Comment_119044201

Yes all TV and Saorview box's showing the same. Yes it's the overspill from the North I receive the UK stations from. Its the same ariel that's up for over 30 years.

The neighbours signal on UK stations is OK. When I say ariel box I'm referring to that in this pic whatever it is called.

IMG_20220511_071009.jpg

L1011 · 11-05-2022 7:39am

That's the balun, its a passive component of the aerial. It's not something that often fails. Why do you think yours has?

Mr321 · 11-05-2022 8:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119044478#Comment_119044478

I just thought maybe it's what received the stations in.

We would have had the clearest reception of UK stations always both on the old analogue and freeview and this past few weeks nothing. No BBC NI at all and the rest barely watchable when good.

The Cush · 11-05-2022 8:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119044450#Comment_119044450

Basically it's the box that houses the cable connection to the aerial, integral part of the aerial, water/moisture ingress over 30 years can corrode connections. Wiring up plugs, aerials and wall plates - A.T.V. Poles, Brackets, Clamps & Aerials (aerialsandtv.com)

If the aerial is there 30 years replacement would be recommended and if the cable is also there that length of time there may be issues with it too.

Recommended aerial Group K wideband, avoid Group B and T, Group A only if all your Freeview/(Saorview?) transmitter frequencies fall within UHF 21-37. Is this aerial also used for Saorview reception?

Blake aerials highly recommended - Television Aerials - Blake UK (blake-uk.com)

The Cush · 11-05-2022 8:37am

Looking at your other post in the satellite forum re: SkyQ/Freesat issue, how long have you been having these aerial issues?

Mr321 · 11-05-2022 9:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119044533#Comment_119044533

Thanks. The boxes are well insulated up with tape but obviously after many years no doubt moisture is getting in.

It goes from that box down to another box on the Irish stations ariel then into a uhf power splitter in the attic and off to each TV in the house.

Mr321 · 11-05-2022 9:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119044599#Comment_119044599

Have sky since 2014 and was updated to Q the other week. The freesat query was due to not being able to get any UK channels so said I'd give it a try on the freesat TV.

The sat and ariel arnt beside each other at the house.

Ariel reception problems going on over 2 months now so long before the sat was changed.

I'm up very high where I live also so shouldn't be an issue.

maestroamado · 11-05-2022 9:16am

There is a booster that supplies currant and i think it is more likely that...

The Cush · 11-05-2022 9:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119044710#Comment_119044710

So 2 aerials into a UHF combiner and from there to a distribution amp.

Issue could be with either of the above also and/or connections to these units.

Initially check that the connections are well made and secure, a loose or bad connection can cause these issues.

Also as the aerial is over 30 years old it is possible the old aerial may be susceptible to interference from mobile base stations due to the coverage range of the aerial. A sizeable chunk of spectrum has moved from TV to mobile services in the last 10 years or so with some older aerials overlapping the new mobile spectrum which can cause inward interference to existing TV frequencies. A new mobile base station or switching on new 700 MHz frequencies at an existing base station is a possibility .

The Cush · 11-05-2022 9:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119044723#Comment_119044723

Yes, that rules out any issues between the satellite and aerial installations.

Mr321 · 11-05-2022 10:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119044877#Comment_119044877

Yes that's it. I think those boxes I was talking about could be each ariels amplifier maybe? I recall 12v being wrote on them one time I seen them

I'm going to take down the ariel this evening see what's what and clean up it all.

Like you said could be either of the 2 mentioned, hard to know which one to replace first if it's still the same after a clean up

The Cush · 11-05-2022 11:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045114#Comment_119045114

Post a pic of the aerial, interesting to see what type it is.

Also post a pic of that unit with the 12v, could that be a power supply?

Mr321 · 11-05-2022 2:02pm

Yea weather depending later if I do it.

Thanks

Mr321 · 11-05-2022 3:47pm

Home and lashing outside but checked the TV and BBC NI and UK channels atm are

Signal strength 10/10

Signal quality jumping from 4 - 6/10

Would that narrow down the problem of where/which the fault lies?

L1011 · 11-05-2022 3:48pm

Strength and quality numbers are basically made up box to box and mean nothing useful.

The Cush · 11-05-2022 4:25pm

As L1011 posted, unfortunately not.

A terrestrial signal meter and checking at each break in the cable would be ideal. Only did this last week for my brother and quickly found the fault in a passive splitter.

muffler · 11-05-2022 4:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119046953#Comment_119046953

Really? Then maybe you could explain why I was asked by regular experts in this forum to post details of signal strength and quality in relation to an issue I have.

The Cush · 11-05-2022 4:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119047130#Comment_119047130

It indicates how good or bad the signal strength and quality is arriving at the internal tuner but it won't indicate where in the installation the fault lies.

A 100/100 or 10/10 indicates a perfect signal, a significant drop will confirm a fault somewhere.

Mr321 · 11-05-2022 6:03pm

OK this is the setup. Top ariel for the UK over spill which has been working since TV was invented.

Bottom ariel the Irish stations and from that lower box you can see goes into this amplifier box in the attic to the different TVs in the house.

I've swapped and changed and checked the tvs to see if anything was different or drawing away a signal with another being on and doesn't seem to be.

The 12v & 24v I mentioned earlier are on those boxes thats on the ariel. Inside them from what I can remember was a band screwed across in them and the ariel core tightened in on the band etc.

I think the UK must be problem because if that amplifier was playing up I'd have no Irish stations or nothing at all.

L1011 · 11-05-2022 6:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119047130#Comment_119047130

They are, at best, an indication of whether changes have done anything. They are of no use in a case like this

They are arbitrary scales that don't even have consistency between the same model of box. Signal and SNR figures in real measurements as used on pro kit would be real figures

The Cush · 11-05-2022 6:33pm

12v and 24v on those two boxes on the mast would indicate they are masthead amplifiers but there appears to be no power supply to amplify the feeds.

Masthead amps boost a weak received signal at the aerial before going down the cable to the TV, used during analogue TV days I assume. Digital signals can be more robust for similar transmitter power, in many cases no longer requiring a masthead amp after analogue was switched off.

This could be your problem, those masthead amps are attenuating/weakening the signal passing through them without power to amplify.

Is the Freeview signal passing through both boxes?

The power is carried on the coax from a remote power supply to the masthead amp.

I would recommend removing the two masthead amps and replacing them with either a passive combiner or another single masthead amp with power supply if the received signal isn't good enough.

Do you know which Saorview and Freeview transmitters you are receiving from?

Elvis Hammond · 11-05-2022 9:15pm

That Triax/Wolsey distribution amp. has 12V line power for a masthead.

I'd say only one of those boxes is an amplifier; mention of voltage in the other one would be to indicate power passing leg(s) in a combiner.

Mr321 · 11-05-2022 10:10pm

Thanks for the replies and help so far, I didn't get taking the aerial down this evening as something else came up.

I'd be receiving from Brougher and Cairn Hill.

Yea the freeview passes down into the Saorview box then from that Saorview box into the connection that says UHF on that amplifier splitter in the attic. That's the only power going to the aerial.

I see there's 3 wires connected up to the freeview box and 2 to the Saorview view one.

So yous think I'd get away with 1 of those boxes with a passive or single mast head amp?

Each ariel has a balun so some ariel wire goes to this single mast head and from it into the splitter i have in the attic?

Elvis Hammond · 11-05-2022 10:35pm

Three cables is 2 in, 1 out to combine the signals. The amplifier is 1 in, 1 out.

Not that it matters, but it must be Clermont Carn for Saorview, as the aerial is vertically polarised?

Mr321 · 11-05-2022 10:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119048922#Comment_119048922

Probably is Clermont sorry.

Saorview Stations are 100%

The Cush · 12-05-2022 1:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119048786#Comment_119048786

Can't say for sure if the masthead amp is redundant, this can only be determined when troubleshooting the system.

The weak signal fault lies somewhere in that installation but finding it would take time. 30 years is a long time to be exposed to the elements, moisture/water ingress, corrosion.

The question is has the masthead amp and/or distribution amp, which supplies power to the masthead amp via the UHF-in cable, failed?

Are there bad cable connection(s) somewhere on that mast?

Has the combiner failed due to moisture ingress over the years?

Unfortunately difficult to troubleshoot remotely but would enjoy getting my hands on it. Might be a job for an installer with a meter to fault find.

Mr321 · 12-05-2022 6:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119049356#Comment_119049356

Prices up some stuff today and I'll change the mast head amp and see where I'm at.

Check the quality etc and probably if all OK might just change out the ariel cable on the ariel right into the attic aswell. Not that much cable in the whole thing altogether so shouldn't be to bad.

Mr321 · 13-05-2022 3:16pm

This is the 2 boxes what should I replace them with?

Mr321 · 13-05-2022 3:25pm

This is the setup

The Cush · 13-05-2022 3:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119057392#Comment_119057392

You weren't lying about the age, old brown coax, 1985 masthead amp and maybe 40 year old combiner.

Will have a look at replacements.

Good idea to replace out the brown coax with satellite grade cable too while you're up there.

Mr321 · 13-05-2022 3:34pm

Yea going to change the cable. That's no easy ariel to take down so not going at it twice lol thanks

The Cush · 13-05-2022 3:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119057429#Comment_119057429

So the masthead amplification is after the 2 aerials combined and then down to further amplification in the attic. Generally not recommended but it is was it is. Meter would be useful here.

A masthead amp could be good enough to feed a number of TVs via a passive splitter in the attic without further amplification, again it'll depend on the signal strength/quality.

Mr321 · 13-05-2022 4:00pm

Looked at a neighbours and its the same set up.

The Cush · 13-05-2022 4:17pm

Combiner here, Freeview on leg1 and Saorview on leg 2 - Fringe UHF Diplexer 3740 Combines 2 UHF Aerials into a Single Cable (freetv.ie)

Masthead amps here - Masthead Amplifiers - Amplify TV Signal at Source - Next Day Delivery (freetv.ie)

Regarding the masthead amp, they require 12v power, not sure what the distribution amp outputs to the aerial or even if it's working? Separate 12v power supply may be required.

Shop around for best prices.

Also how far are you from the respective Freeview and Saorview transmitters, no point over amplifying a signal if you're close to either of those two transmitters?

Regarding cable, look out for satellite grade CT100 spec cable, example here - CT100 Cable for Satellite & Aerial Installs - Best Prices in Ireland (freetv.ie). Lots of manufactures making this spec cable so shop around. List of certified cables and their manufacturers here - https://www.cai.org.uk/index.php/contact/downloads/product-certification-schemes/cable-certification/110-cai-certified-cables/file

Mr321 · 13-05-2022 4:53pm

Thanks heading to get the bits for it now in a shop. I'd be along closer to the UK stations transmitter then the Irish ones. Your right think this was wired wrong. Must have been a bit of a cowboy doing it in the 80s lol Would this be correct was sent this there?

The power supply to the ariel is that box I posted from the attic?

The Cush · 13-05-2022 5:01pm

What would I do here?

I would initially replace the cables, in the process checking the aerial connections for corrosion.

After this install the aerial combiner and connect directly to the distribution amp in the attic and then do a signal strength/quality check for the two transmitters separately on each respective TV. Remember that Brougher Mountain has three hi power PSB muxes and three lo power commercial muxes.

If the signal isn't sufficient then go with a masthead amp, maybe a variable power one that the output signal can be adjusted to prevent tuner overload. Maybe replacing the distribution amp with a passive splitter and separate power supply for the masthead amp.

Good luck with it.

The Cush · 13-05-2022 5:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119057784#Comment_119057784

Can you check on the Saorview checker which Saorview transmitter is recommended for your location?

If you're close enough to Brougher Mt you might not require the amp, it could've been there for analogue TV reception, digital is more robust.

Regarding the amplification, my issue would be more with the double amplification rather than where the masthead amp is, double amplification wouldn't be recommended in a small domestic install unless there were long cable runs and signal level drop over that run.

Elvis Hammond · 13-05-2022 8:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119057429#Comment_119057429

It wouldn't have been done like that originally. That's a group A amplifier, so should filter out the Saorview signal. (And ch.37 from Brougher as it's old gp. A.) Says 24 volts as well, & the dist. amp. would only supply 12, I'd imagine.

That black cable is fresher looking than the others, & a bit more carelessly fitted too. (Lot of exposed inner, messier braid.) I'd say some 'digital aerial' merchant later fitted that top aerial & 'reconfigured' things. Whole lot needs replacing anyway, as is pretty obvious.

Mr321 · 13-05-2022 9:51pm

So far I've bought the cable and redone it all and cleaned up bits and pieces and put it up to see what's was what and reception still the same. What's odd is my Bbcs are watchable on one TV with some interference and not showing up on another. Both Panasonic and the one there better on is an older one (2012)

Shop only has these 2 kinds of masthead boxes . In and out one with power pic 1 and the three one pic 2 the combiner is one you talked of earlier and get rid of the other?

Was only analogue when this setup was about so no idea why its double amped? Would that be unsafe?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119058614#Comment_119058614

That black cable might have went in I think 10 year ago when a new bracket was made for the ariel not sure. Same guy that done it many years before anyway. Can't ask him anymore as he passed away few years back.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119057868#Comment_119057868

Mr321 · 13-05-2022 10:06pm

Also yea I'm taking from the right transmitters.

Its very strange whatever has happened. Thought maybe at first it was atmospheric pressure but going on to long now

Elvis Hammond · 13-05-2022 10:15pm

There's nothing wrong with having 2 amplifiers, provided nothing is being overloaded. Is the distribution amp. a later addition maybe to serve extra TV points? Although there's always the suspicion it could be just to make up for falling signal levels from outside.

Are you sure your diagram in post #32 is right? I don't think the original installer would later sabotage his own work like that; I assume it's Freeview aerial to amplifier & then to diplexer.

Elvis Hammond · 13-05-2022 10:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119058877#Comment_119058877

Nothing strange at all. It's just old moisture damaged equipment that's finally had enough.

Mr321 · 13-05-2022 10:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119058926#Comment_119058926

I drew out the first diagram for yous of how its always been after I took the ariel down. Was like that when there was 1 TV in the house then that splitter in the attic was added years after for other tvs. That 2nd drawing is one is one I was sent and wondered if it's how it should be now. He didn't sabotage his own work just added a longer cable when I wanted the ariel moved. Like reception was perfect after that up to recently?

The bit I find odd is one TV has good reception on a certain channel while another one doesn't and so fourth. Swapped around the TV points on that spitter made no difference.

Mr321 · 13-05-2022 10:53pm

BBC1 NI atm on one TV

UTV not bad little bit of interference

Elvis Hammond · 13-05-2022 11:07pm

The digital error correction means you can get perfect picture & sound, when the actual signal is fairly degraded, but the failure point is sudden. (Digital cliff.)

The Cush · 13-05-2022 11:20pm

Just a couple of questions

Is the new masthead amp back in the system? If so is it still being powered by the distribution amp in the attic?

Have you checked the balun connectors on the aerial for corrosion?

Are the combiner and masthead amp wired as before?

If remaking any connections ensure that any of the outer metal braid wires aren't in contact with the centre core wire.

Troubleshooting can be slow and laborious but should be worth it in the end.

The Cush · 14-05-2022 12:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119058831#Comment_119058831

The Labgear combiner is good, 4g & 5g (800/700 MHz) protected from inward mobile interference.

The Labgear masthead amp a little less so, 4g (800 MHz) protected from inward mobile interference but susceptible to 700 MHz band (UHF 50-60) interference from nearby 4g/5g mobile base stations.

Not unsafe to double amp but can amplify upstream issues and possibly overload tuners downstream as mentioned by Elvis H above.

Mr321 · 14-05-2022 12:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119059198#Comment_119059198

Yea I opened up the balums and cleaned the connections but they were not bad at all.

OK thanks for the info on those labgear boxes. The combined one is €30 so not to bad. I havnt bought it as yet. Ariel is back up just with new cable all over coming into the spillter.

Yes they are wires as before as I wired them the other way first as the diagram I was sent showed and I wasn't getting any signals from freeview or Saorview.?

That amp splitter in the attic would hardly be giving trouble would it? It says 50hz on it?

Would it be worth buying a meter to test it before I buy anything else?

Thanks

Ariel parts query?

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