Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

There are people on this thread who are pushing an agenda *very hard* that EU countries want to buy russian gas because they are either too cowardly or enamoured with Russia or even happy about the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Their argument is a steaming pile and their constant droning is getting quite tiresome.

To me the German indecision is quite typical and tallies with a lifetime of experience. The motto here is "don't do anything hasty or too drastic. Try small measures in small doses over a longer time and don't do anything too rash or radical. Easy does it".

Germany never engages in fast, radical, decisive action. Their reaction to COVID was by far the most drastic and far-reaching set of measures ever taken here and it pissed of quite a large number of people.

Of course you get assholes here who either support Putin and also many people (sadly also my own brother) who prescribe to the whole "NATO provocation" theory. But the vast majority of people here support sanctions against Russia. Even the 6 or more Russians who work in my company. And you can guess what my Syrian coworker thinks about Russia. Yes, he lost absolutely fcuking everything. No normal, decent person supports Putin.

Where is the ultimate TURN OFF button to mute all these Russian apologetists, trolls, useful idiots, provocateurs, contrarians and other lot that don't contribute anything to a sensible rational discussion and just cause noise and saw discord?

🤔

You're one of them, if it wasn't clear 🤗

@Detritus70

I don't know if you meant me but...

It's not agenda, it's a correct reading of the situation and this failed long term strategy. Accompanied with the unwillingness to commit to reversing it quickly. It's not the lack of action, yes Germany moves slow er know it, its the lack of strong commitment and clear plan. Germany was pushed to it by the US, UK and the CEE EU countries. If they didn't, Germany would probably do nothing...

The main culprits are Germany, Italy and Austria in that order. Germany of course is the most important (50% of Russian gas exported to the EU).

German social democrats created this "Russian friendship policy" willingly from in the 90s, and it all smells with apologetism, nepotism and corruption as well - Schröder Gazprom etc. By late 90s it was obvious Russia was going back to what it always was and the "new hope of peaceful civilised Russia" after 1991 was only a dream.

What's worse, Merkel just continued in the same Schröder's policy for 20+ years. Now, the CDU-CSU are suddenly very critical and hawkish of Scholz, better late than never.

As it stands, Scholz's weakness has managed to damage German global reputation and Germany lost its de facto unofficial EU leadership / policy driver / unifying role, which is very unfortunate. Because French leadership isn't really palatable to me (and many others), especially under Macron with his little Napoleon syndrome (too much talking, little action, too pushy/unilateral etc).

I criticise current German position and attitude as a germanophile by the way, because it's a shame and bad for the EU as a whole (in my opinion). German energy and foreign policy is an abject strategic failure. The faster it's corrected the better. This is the basis of what you call "an agenda" 😎

You know, a smiley makes you neither clever nor right.

Of course you would have no idea what it was like in the 70's and 80's in Germany, or indeed a lot of mainland Europe. We all knew where the nuclear bunkers were. We knew what the air raid sirens meant and when the drills where. Fighter jets flying extremely low and supersonic over German cities resulting in unbearable noise and broken windows were not just a daily, but several times a day occurrence.

The newest developments between the UdSSR and the US were in the news every day, there were anti-war and anti nuclear weapons demonstrations every week and we all knew how fast Germany would be anihilated by either the advancing Soviet army or nuclear weapons. This was not too long after the war and many people remembered it all too well. To me it was normal that elderly people had limbs missing or scars from old bullet wounds. And don't forget the mental scars, imagine a country with millions of traumatised people that could barely function.

Plus, Germany was actually only half a country, anyone here remember our temporary capital city of Bonn?

Germany didn't have much of an army and it was strictly defence only. Never again should this army fight on foreign soil.

So yes, there is a very well founded reluctance by Germany to be overly aggressive or militaristic. We know where this sh*t leads and it's nowhere good. Don't you think two world wars are enough? We would really, really like to sit out the next one. It would be nice if only once it had nothing to do with us!

Easy for armchair heroes to judge what's going on here when they're neither here or have any fcuking clue what lead to Germany being the way it is.

Germany and the rest of Europe is getting off Russian gas asap, it just. Doesn't. Happen. Overnight.

If you have a better idea, get in touch quick and tell them what you have figured out down the pub that every single German or European expert has overlooked.

Well, given that my closest ancestors witnessed German and then Soviet occupation first hand (story few posts above) and that I grew up behind the Iron Curtain in a country bordering both the Western and Eastern "Democratic" Germany, witnessed the fall of the Berlin Wall and the CEE revolutions of '89 including the Velvet Revolution personally on site etc. I think I'm less of an armchair intellectual than you, don't you think? 😇

Furthermore, I have German relatives as well as friends and as mentioned I'm a germanophile, so I perfectly understand the historical post-WW2 German position.

That still doesn't mean I'm wrong criticising current German chancellor/government for their weakness in terms of military support of Ukraine and reluctance of imposing economic sanctions against the Russian fascist regime. As I said, CDU-CSU are equally, and correctly, strongly critical and hawkish. So you can't blame me of being somehow harsh or anti-German...This opinion is shared by large % of German population, the main German opposition as well as pretty much the whole political representation of the CEE region.

Look, my comment was clearly about Erdogan's policy on inflation, which I consider to be incompetent as almost any professional economist in this area will tell you. It has nothing to do with any feelings I have about Turkey, or Muslims or anyone else.

Anyhow the relation of this to Ukraine is somewhat weak, so let's leave it there.

Great, does that mean you are finished spilling utter tosh out on your keyboard.

No interest = no inflation. Bloody flat earth theory level stuff.

As it stands, Scholz's weakness has managed to damage German global reputation and Germany lost its de facto unofficial EU leadership / policy driver / unifying role, which is very unfortunate. Because French leadership isn't really palatable to me (and many others), especially under Macron with his little Napoleon syndrome (too much talking, little action, too pushy/unilateral etc).

I for one have no problem with France taking the EU leadership baton from Germany. It is about time it changed anyway and I hope that it benefits the French motor industry as much as Germany being the leader of Europe benefitted AUDI, BMW, MERCEDES and VW.

I hope France holds the unofficial EU lead for the next 20 years.

Can you lay out to me where this leadership role is defined?

The French have just made terrible cars (apart from a few gems)

You cannot blame that on the German hegemony in the EU?