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The Irish protocol.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,621 ✭✭✭Fionn1952




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,543 ✭✭✭Dazler97




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,621 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    Perhaps I should've expanded rather than just leaving that flippant response.

    For context, I grew up in NI and lived there for most of my life.

    To a casual observer, I can see how you might think it is about religion. The way that it is reported on doesn't help with the constant references to Catholics and Protestants.

    The point I should've went on to make is that while they're convenient labels, ultimately the issue boils down to politics and different cultural backgrounds, not religion. The split is predominantly along religious lines, but the various paramilitaries weren't killing people because of minor theological disagreements. People weren't killed because of their views on transubstatiation! The different religions of the two communities are a symptom of the different cultural backgrounds, not the cause.

    I've relayed the story on here before about, 'are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist' (and my reaction when Dara O'Briain recounted the same experience in one of his shows). It's a question that shouldn't make any sense, but absolutely every person from NI would know what they're really being asked....because it isn't actually about religion at all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,543 ✭✭✭Dazler97


    Yep i agree it's definitely reported like its religion but not always the case



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady




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  • Registered Users Posts: 352 ✭✭Snugbugrug28


    Whipped up anti protocol fear for the DUP election. Retreated once the job was done.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,757 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog




  • Registered Users Posts: 69,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Pretty clear statement. The last sentence in particular.

    The Protocol, as a cornerstone of the withdrawal agreement, it's an international agreement. It's renegotiation is not an option. The European Union is united in this position





  • Registered Users Posts: 13,988 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Teresa May correctly pointing out in the Commons today that the DUP voted against a deal that would remove the need for a border in the Irish sea. The DUP's desire to see a hard border on the island of Ireland is palpable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    It's funny the way the Unionists and Unionist sympathetic media keep saying that 'Not one Unionist politician supports the Protocol' but ignore the fact that not one of the other politicians (the majority) objects to it.

    Alex isn't the most Unionist of the north's media but he should know better than trying to sell this 'woe is me' story without balance.




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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    He has a point. If nationalist politicians could collapse the Assembly over an Irish Languages Act that had no meaningful effect on the ordinary lives of people, delaying the formation of the Assembly until the Protocol (which has an effect on the ordinary lives of people) is sorted is sauce for the goose stuff.

    Not saying I agree with them, but the precedent is there and there is a clear analogy. There is no moral high ground here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,988 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Then there can never be another sitting NI assembly again until a 3rd way is found that is satisfactory to all parties concerned. If it's precedent we're talking about, then Sinn Fein would consider it their prerogative to do the same as the DUP upon the imposition of a hard border within Ireland.

    There are some issues that are beyond compromise in NI. One is the constitutional question. A border poll would most likely never get cross-community support, whichever way it goes. That's why it makes more sense to have it as a simple majority vote. Similarly with the Protocol, it will never get CC support. That's why it's a simple majority in the NIA in order for the consent mechanism to work.

    Unless some fantastic innovative solution is brought forward, which allows the UK to fully leave the EU, ROI to stay in the EU, and keeps the flow of goods and services going from ROI<>NI and NI<>GB, exactly as before 2021, while retaining the integrity of the EU SM, then someone is going to have to compromise on their wishes, and everyone involved is saying, 'but not me!'. I will say it's going to be the DUP and the Ulster Unionist community, simply because they have the least sway in the push and pull between the UK and EU. The EU has thus far backed Ireland's position. The same cannot be said of the Conservative government for Ulster Unionists. Theresa May only the other day gave Donaldson a verbal slap down in the Commons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    That wasn't the point I made.

    Here it is again.

    It's funny the way the Unionists and Unionist sympathetic media keep saying that 'Not one Unionist politician supports the Protocol' but ignore the fact that not one of the other politicians (the majority) objects to it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,099 ✭✭✭✭end of the road



    it's not sauce for the goose stuff at all.

    an irish language act itself may not have any effect on the lives of ordinary people but it's non-introduction does, as it is alloweing sectarianism to continue, therefore SF had to collapse the assembly as otherwise they would be placating sectarianism.

    the protocal is effecting very few people and there are ways to prevent that but britain wouldn't agree to them, and the DUP are refusing to get the assembly up and running simply because they don't want to work with any opposition party, not because of the protocal which is a success and is a benefit to northern ireland allowing it to be in both camps.

    SF absolutely have the moral high ground here and always have done so over the first century bigots of the DUP.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Edit



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    I think where I would disagree with you here is that there is a difference in the nature of the Irish Language Act, which is ultimately a piece of language legislation that is not opposed on the basis of impossibility, but rather ideology. The Protocol on the other hand is simply a matter of possibility versus impossibility -- because it is the only logical endpoint to the conundrum of reconciling what the Brexiteers wanted and what the EU will realistically tolerate. It's beyond an ideological argument insofar as to oppose the Protocol (to the extent that one tries to scrap it) is to more or less oppose the only logical path of progress.

    While Unionist concerns about the so-called sea border are understandable, their oppositiom must be viewed with an acknowledgement that (1) a sea border is the lesser of two evils in staying as close to the spirit of the GFA as possible, as it is clear that checks at ports etc are far less socioeconomically intrusive than a land border; and (2) the largest Unionist party campaigned for Brexit despite clear warnings that it would be disruptive to the working of the GFA -- this miscalculation makes them morally responsible for the situation even if they don't like the situation or accept they were enablers of it.

    I appreciate it isn't as simple as just telling the Unionists this and they will just accept the logic -- but I do think the above is logical nonetheless.



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    There is a majority in favour of Irish Language legislation in the Assembly but the resident 'democrats' that blanch sides with on this and other things, block it.

    Heck, Westminster even supports it and will legislate for it above the 'democrats' heads.



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    If the British back down again what does Unionism do?




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,893 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,871 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    What happens when the clowns are allowed to leave the circus and ruin run a country...




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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,893 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Yeah. I think the best thing the DUP can do at this point is clam up. Even if they get their way regarding the protocol, they're begging to have their salaries withheld unless they form a government.


    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,671 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Imagine building yourself a career in trade agreements and international relations; you get a Career Making job in the European Commission, excited to build deals and work with geopolitical experts from across the globe ... ... and you get stuck being liaison or backroom staff in the Brexit "negotiations". Every week dealing with arrogant numbskulls, demonstrably incapable of running a paperstand, never mind a G7 country - but you have to be polite, professional. God you'd be driven to drink to drown your sorrows; did you píss somebody off that you're stuck working with Liz Truss?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    This is the only thing those in charge in Westminster understand. A slow Spock-Bite until compliance is sold as a win and the DUP has its chain yanked.

    https://twitter.com/JuliusWaller/status/1524312343085264896?s=20&t=mENmjmozASGZEgW_0_NehA

    Post edited by Junkyard Tom on


  • Registered Users Posts: 352 ✭✭Snugbugrug28


    Don't worry. They're sending a US Special Envoy




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Grassey


    Who could have possibly have guessed this would happen.....




    Boris Johnson will vow not to scrap the Brexit deal governing Northern Ireland and instead back reform that has “the broadest possible cross-community support”, in an attempt to cool tensions over the issue.

    In a shift in tone before emergency talks in Belfast on Monday, the prime minister will make it clear that he has no intention of scrapping the so-called Northern Ireland protocol, which he claims is causing significant disruption to trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.


    Officials said that Johnson was intending to deliver a “tough message” to the leaders of Northern Ireland’s parties. He will plead with them to “get back to work”

    Johnson will make it clear that the government has never suggested scrapping the protocol and that there will always need to be a treaty in place between the UK and the EU that prevents a hard border on the island of Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,417 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    That’s hilarious- all the fake huffing and puffing and idle threats to scrap it (the DUP were lapping it up like rabid dogs) and now BoJo hasn’t a notion of scrapping it. The EU should actually double down on the Protocol now.

    How many times do English tories have to March them up a hill and then throw them off it?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,671 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Officials said that Johnson was intending to deliver a “tough message” to the leaders of Northern Ireland’s parties. He will plead with them to “get back to work”

    Goddamn Johnson. Most parties want to work, it's just your useful idiots who are detonating the thing.

    Watched a blistering speech from Naomi Long condemning the DUP having the nerve to walk into Stormant, sign the register and take a wage for refusing to do any work. If you refuse to engage in the institutions, you shouldn't be paid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,417 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    And now BoJo is going to order them to like it or lump it! Also ordering the DUP to get back to work with SF as lead party!



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,417 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    I think that’s who he’s aiming it at- the DUP



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,671 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    With Johnson? Who knows. I suspect he may well be, coated in abstraction to avoid actually singling out the DUP; but in also talking about"reform" of the Protocol it feels like he's still giving them runway to be obstinate.



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