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NI Assembly Elections - A rerun of the GFA referendum?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    This has been a tactic used by the British government for several years now — first it was the No Deal Brexit malarkey that was threatened and was absolutely never going to be pursued, and now the Protocol has become the tool for brinkmanship. No legislation to rip up the Protocol was outlined in the Queen’s Speech, only that “legislation was being prepared” — which doesn’t sound like some great plan is in place.

    None of this is about any sincere concern for NI, it is all about the Tories outmuscling Labour. All the craic about No Deal Brexit was posturing to appease the hardcore Brexiteers and to make Labour look like weak-kneed cowards who would lick Brussel’s boots. It has been an incredibly effective technique in recent years in driving a wedge between Labour and its voter base in the north of a England and other traditionally Labour-voting areas (though as we have seen, has come at the cost of the Tories alienating themselves from some of their own support). The Protocol is simply the next thing on which the Tories can hang their image of the plucky Britons sticking it to Brussels while Labour will be forced into a corner where arguing reason means looking like they are saying Bend Over for Brussels.

    They will ratchet this language up and will once again play the NI Unionists on a string until, as we have seen, the time comes to throw them under the bus once more. The Tories know that, even after Brexit, the EU is still a great scapegoat on which to pin the insecurities of English Nationalism — and the other policy they are using to make Labour look spineless, i.e. Operation Rwanda, is also grounded in the Point at Johnny Foreigner stuff that they clearly have identified as being effective.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    Oh completely, though I’d say that the extra spice in this is that it’s not just a Nationalist, but a Shinner. I think a Colum Eastwood FM would be much less offensive to much of Unionist sensibilities than a Michelle O’Neill. Don’t get me wrong, there are a good few out there who simply balk at the idea of a Nationalist FM full stop, but I think even at the more liberal end of the Unionist spectrum there’s a bit of a groan over a Sinn Fein FM. And hey, that’s not isolated to the North, I personally know people (mostly from the Dublin private school circle) who have said they would go as far as leaving the country if Sinn Fein formed a government in the South.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    Thanks for detail... i kinda think the same but i kinda the language stronger from both sides in last few days... i have thought for some time the UK trying to link Assembly/Protocol and GFA to some extent but will it wash... I seen on the times MM sent Boris a warning about the protocol... for me thats silly language and no-one will take any heed of that kinda talk... why do Irish Governments say "warning" they were doing the same during Covid...



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    I think the language is being ratcheted up because of the election — not the NI one but rather in Great Britain. The Tories took somewhat of a hit in the election and now they want to revive the themes that have helped them make a punch in Labour’s heartlands — English Nationalism (dressed up as Europhobia) and immigration. They are drawing the battle lines on these topics to make Labour look weak while the Tories go full jingo. They want to recreate that Britain vs Brussels spirit because it alway works.

    The thing here is quite simply the lack of an alternative. The legislation to scrap the Protocol hasn’t appeared yet and even if it does, it’s hard to see how it can actually do anything other than make NI’s situation even worse if it’s going to be some unilateral torpedo to the arrangement. It is almost entirely counter-productive for the Tories as it isn’t going to fix the the problem (only make it worse) and piss off just about everyone aside from the DUP and few of the usual Brexiteer high priests.

    It makes sense from the Tories’ perspective to play brinkmanship over the Protocol to force Labour’s hand and then pillory them for it, but actually going as far as to unilaterally torpedo the Protocol seems counterproductive for them. Unless of course, and this is probably one for the conspiracy threads, Westminster has sniffed from the NI election that making an absolute shambles of NI might be the answer to forever ridding themselves of it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    My own opinion is the UK Government simply have to find a way to install as first minister as once this happens the equality of the parties is absolutely confirmed... I am hoping that this is the case and each side UK and EU will be able to tweak for this to happen...



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  • Registered Users Posts: 69,155 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Historic day regardless of your politics.




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    I think the real historic day will be when SF confirmed as First Minister... it looks like UK are doing their best to make it happen...

    I meant to say this earlier but forgot...



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    I seen this guy on tele thw other day but only realized now what he up to as i was doing something and just got the end...

    Seems didn't go too well...



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,245 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Anyway, are SF fully 100% behind the Protocol?

    Or just in favour of it as long as the DUP/TUV are opposed to same protocol?



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,155 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    SF were advocating for special status for NI before even FG were.(Enda ruled it out in 2016)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 69,155 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    We hardly heard from Sammy during the election, he and Paisley were kept away from the hustings and you can see why, stumped on a question, just bluff it.




  • Registered Users Posts: 387 ✭✭shirrup


    Mr Wilson looks a bit worse for wear in that clip, post election hangover?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,245 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    It's hard to figure that strategy out. The protocol is a pretty good deal for NI business and if accepted and taken advantage of, could make NI a more prosperous and viable entity. That's counter intuitive to a united Ireland in several ways. Would it not make more sense to let the DUP have what they want and let them drive the NI economy down a big hole? Then SF can say... look south boys & girls, they'll do a better job for ye? Of course, border controls would have to be implemented on the island but that would also be anti business and not popular with NI residents either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 387 ✭✭shirrup


    Would it not make more sense to let the DUP have what they want?

    No, because that's not how a democratic process works.

    You're not seriously suggesting that the majority of the North have their wish ignored, just to appease the DUP are you?

    Ludicrous.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    Today is about what UK wants in my view... The UK are out of the EU so there will have to be a compromise kin NI politics to move forward... I expect that he will do whatever necessary... The only two options available i can see are for DUP to participate in the Assembly or for changes to protocol... Boris has a very strong hand at the moment... he came to NI immediately as the vote collapapsed on Friday so its top of agenda... Looking south does not seem to be happen as i do not think too many want to come south at thje moment...



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,155 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I suspect SF are playing the long game again. They know it has little to do with the Protocol and more to do with the DUP unwilling to truly share power.

    We have all seen it over the abuse of the POC and their reaction to SF becoming biggest party.

    You also seen people voting tactically, ignoring the SDLP and moving to the Alliance.

    I don't know, but I think SF's next move is to get the Irish gov to make the move for a UI, whether that is a government they are part of or otherwise. A UI is no longer just about history and republican aspirations, it is and will be about an economic and prosperity issue too.

    If that happens those middle ground voters that can be persuaded come into play. The amount of Alliance transfers to SF in the election will encourage this.

    If that is the strategy then an economically better placed NI is what you would want. The more the DUP agitate to make that a precarious status the better for SF and a UI.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    What will they be waiting for... are you suggesting they do not want the position of 1st minister today... SF have a mandate now and i am thinking they do not want it... I am getting the impression that SF do not want UI ansd they want a cozy arrangement in NI with DUP like we have in south with FF/FG... Somehow i don't think thats going to be a runner...



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,155 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    ??

    They have no choice in the matter today. The choice has been removed.

    I was talking about medium to long term strategy.

    You'll never see the power swap fans give them credit for getting the Brexit solution right. They played a blinder there IMO, convinced Dublin that the only way forward from an all island point of view was a special status for the north. Once they grasped that, SF sat back and let Dublin lead, putting them on a collision path with belligerent Unionism. Nobody in Dublin government or these islands can now be unaware what a brick wall that belligerence is or about the the nature of it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    There are few parties dancing around this blaming the other guy... i expect we will have to find a solution on the Island... The blame game is over... I expect if we don't find a resolution people like EU and US will lose interest... where will we be then...



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,155 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    'We' have found a resolution M.

    Boris will underline it today, a few changes and the Protocol stays, ILA and Womens Rights will be delivered etc etc.

    Then we'll see who wants to be democrats. Plenty of blame to come yet and the US and EU are going nowhere I fancy.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    Resolved great...

    It seems you have info that Boris has a compromise... i do not know why all the shouting from politicians if its sorted and Boris is coming over to confirm... I was of the impression the protocol could not be changed... seems it can...



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,155 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    There has always been room to alter within the Protocol.

    Boris is essentially coming today to placate the ERG. Don't expect much.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    In expect there is alot more going on than we know... Boris clearly wants the assembly running which is a major step forward...

    It is also significant that Michele O'Neill and MM are meeting this morning... thats alot in one day... I expect today a big day for all concerned...



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Comical Ali strikes again.

    The Teresa May deal was far better for Northern Ireland than the Protocol.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Your fixation on the DUP is interesting. You concentrate so hard on the bogeyman that you miss so much that is happening elsewhere.

    Nationalist vote plateauing, Sinn Fein down on the 2019 Westminister elections, the surge of people fed up with the sectarian extremes, the failure of SF yet again to attract transfers from anywhere etc.

    I will tell you one thing that is true - Sinn Fein are like Moses, useful for wandering in the desert, but they are not able to bring people to the Promised Land.

    Furze is right also, a NI better off economically because it is in both the UK and the EU, won't throw that away for a united Ireland. You are giving credit to Sinn Fein for the Protocol, because you love that the DUP hate it, but you don't see the bigger picture that it pushes a UI further away if it works.



  • Registered Users Posts: 69,155 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady



    Who rejected that one again?

    You clearly didn't read the post. I didn't give SF credit for the protocol, that belongs with the British and Unionism.

    Tactically, SF have played Brexit and the Protocol very well. You can see new alliances and understandings forming as we speak.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,245 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Yes you can look at it both ways, certainly a prosperous NI will be more attractive to southern voters. But it's also a 'dangerous game' in that a prosperous NI may just settle long term into a happy sort of devolved state.

    Personally I suspect that SF enthusiasm for the NI Protocol is as much about that the DUP etc is opposed to it. The SF tune might well change if suddenly the DUP had a Road to Damascus conversion?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    I don’t think it’s correct to say that SF are only supporting the Protocol because the DUP oppose it. There hasn’t been any major change to SF’s stance on these Brexit-related matters that would suggest it, plus it wouldn’t make any strategic sense for them to do so either.

    While it’s true that SF will be happy that the Brexit debacle has and will continue to damage Unionism the longer is trundles on — they also can’t go around advocating any stance that would risk making them the advocates for hardening the Irish border in any way. To oppose the Protocol is to risk something like that, which would certainly not go down well in the border regions where SF have strong electoral support.

    SF support the Protocol because, while further British cock-ups of the situation will play into the hands of Nationalism and Softer Unionism, they know that their voters don’t want even more Irish partition.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    Do you really think that NI can stay as is indefinately... that is really what this is about... sooner or later this needs to be adressed... the result of SF being in the position brings this closer so i expect long term thinking needed for NI starting today..



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  • Registered Users Posts: 69,155 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    To be bluntly honest, there will be those, partitionists and members of the FF/FG/Gr government who will pine for the days they could ignore DUP supremacism, bullying and denial of rights. Those days are firmly over and they need to come to terms with the change. The DUP haven't as yet.



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