Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

Quin_Dub · 18-05-2022 10:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119079490#Comment_119079490

The question of the SA teams making it harder will only arise if they begin to get back a decent number of the players currently overseas which hopefully they will.

If their squads remain largely similar to the way they are now , then no they aren't going to change the overall dynamics all that much.

TRC10 · 18-05-2022 11:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119079323#Comment_119079323

I acknowledged in my previous post that the Top14 is a more competitive league and thus they don't have the luxury of resting players. However I'd disagree with the claim that all French clubs don't go "all in" on Europe. Look at the Toulouse teams that faced Ulster, Munster and Leinster and tell me that isn't a club who is seriously trying to win the competition. Likewise the La Rochelle and Racing teams. They want to win both the Top14 and Heineken Cup. They weren't resting players for Top14 games.

Do you concede that the blanket statement that "French clubs don't care about Europe" is inaccurate?

Lsdrugbyfan · 18-05-2022 11:03am

Wayne Barnes will referee next week’s Heineken Champions Cup final between Leinster and La Rochelle.

sydthebeat · 18-05-2022 11:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119079587#Comment_119079587

dunno, i think if you ask the scots and welsh they will say they have already changed the overall dynamics significantly. there will be no welsh team in the URC play offs, and after the QFs most likely no Scottish team either.

if the other 3 franchises are as active on the transfer market as the sharks have already been, then all the bokke teams will be stringer next season.

sydthebeat · 18-05-2022 11:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119079645#Comment_119079645

great

stephen_n · 18-05-2022 11:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119079645#Comment_119079645

Happy with that. Definitely one of the best refs in the world at the moment. We are also fairly familiar with him.

El_Duderino 09 · 18-05-2022 11:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119079490#Comment_119079490

That's pretry much what the French clubs do. If they judge they can compete to win one or both competitions, they cut their cloth to measure. If they judge they can't compete in both competitions, they cut their cloth to be as competitive as possible in the competition of theie choosing, which is usually the domestic league.

I can't fault them for that.

PMC83 · 18-05-2022 11:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119079490#Comment_119079490

While I absolutely agree with you, I guess its the optics as well. We don't play our best players week in week out to win the league as we don't need to. That's going to irk some rival fans and press, as we are denying their teams a chance to prove themselves against the Sextons and Furlongs. Yes the arguments there that a lot of teams struggle against our second team anyway, but If I was a sharks fan in Durban I'd be a lot more excited about seeing a fully stocked Leinster squad, rather then a raft of players I'd never heard of.

letsbefair · 18-05-2022 11:25am

Can’t believe how Liverpool disrespected the premier league last night with 9 non regulars starting. What a joke of a league. Imagine saving your players for a European final!

Quin_Dub · 18-05-2022 11:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119079698#Comment_119079698

I think it's a double-whammy for those clubs - Like you say it's easier to sell tickets to a game when you can say "Come see Furlong, Sexton" etc.

If it was a full bore Leinster team then an opposition fan can say "Well , didn't think we'd win , but it was great to see such a good team play"

But when Leinster send a shadow side and still win or are picking up losing bonus points there's a second hit in that the fans that paid will think "why bother if they can't even put away Leinsters 3rd's" or whatever.

It's not Leinsters fault and they manage their resources really really well , but it's not great for the overall development of the league in terms of ticket sales and TV/Advertising revenue.

awec · 18-05-2022 11:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119079762#Comment_119079762

That's not what happened though, is it?

AdamD · 18-05-2022 11:29am

Does saying Leinster would be over the salary cap actually translate properly if you took the away how much Ireland would be paying the players for appearances in the way France and England do?

e.g. England:

A player in camp for the duration of the Six Nations earned £75,000, about £15,000 per game

letsbefair · 18-05-2022 11:31am

Goalkeeper Alisson Becker and defender Ibrahima Konate were the only men retained from Saturday’s penalty shoot-out success at Wembley, during which Van Dijk and Salah were forced off with knee and groin problems respectively.

Irish times match report, so it did happen

PMC83 · 18-05-2022 11:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119079791#Comment_119079791

Yeah but did it REALLY happen though..

awec · 18-05-2022 11:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119079791#Comment_119079791

Not going to drag this any further off topic, but just to point out, the Champions league final is 10 days away, 11 days at the time of the match. Players were not rested in the league for Europe.

Football is a bad comparison here, it's totally different.

aloooof · 18-05-2022 11:54am

As an aside, my own take is that these things are cyclical. Generally, how often do we hear arguments along the following lines?

URC winning: "Fresh"
URC losing: "Under-cooked"
English/French winning: "Battle-hardened"
English/French losing: "Fatigued"

Clegg · 18-05-2022 11:56am

Barnes is a good choice for referee. As is Pearce for the Challenge Cup final. They're the best in the world at the job, I think. They're so good at communicating with the players and laying out exactly why they've made a decision.

Would have preferred Pearce for our final as I think he lets the game flow a bit more and isn't as sharp to penalise as Barnes. Both are far better than any of the other options though.

TRC10 · 18-05-2022 12:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119079935#Comment_119079935

Thank you!

When Leinster lost to LAR last year it was because Leinster "don't get tested enough" in their league and LAR are "battle hardened" from their competitive league

When Leinster annihilate the Top14 and H Cup champions Toulouse, it's because Leinster are "fresh" because they play in a weak league and Toulouse are "tired" from playing in a tougher league.

letsbefair · 18-05-2022 12:01pm

It doesn’t matter if they rested 9 players or not. Yes you are right they didn’t rest 9 players at all. Brilliant

awec · 18-05-2022 12:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119079963#Comment_119079963

These 2 things are not contradictory?

TRC10 · 18-05-2022 12:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119080159#Comment_119080159

That's my point. The narrative changes depending on whether Leinster win or lose. Win, and it's because the URC is too easy and they're fresh. Lose, and it's because the URC is too easy and they aren't "battle-hardened".

awec · 18-05-2022 12:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119080183#Comment_119080183

No, I am saying both statements are valid. They don't contradict each other.

There's a happy medium where URC teams can involve their top players infrequently in the league, and this allows them to be fresher than their Top14 / Premiership opponents when they meet. But, if this game management is overdone, particularly in the weeks leading up to Euro games, then URC teams run of players being too rested (i.e. undercooked).

errlloyd · 18-05-2022 2:27pm

I think TRCs problem is that no matter what way you frame the narrative the point is that the *URC sucks*,

We win - because we are fresh - because the URC sucks

We lose - because we are undercooked - because the URC sucks

Leicester (for example) win - because they are battle hardened - because the premiership is full of the best teams in the world

Leicester lose - because they are tired - because the premiership is full of the best teams in the world

This narrative is older than time. It was the narrative in 2007 when Contempomi played 19 out of 20 league games and the Premiership had relegation, it is the still the narrative now when Sexy is hardly seen away from the RDS and the premiership is ringfenced. It will always be the narrative. It's the narrative because their press has a vested interest in bigging up their league (because they cover it) and because their press and fans are generally, across the board, proud of their league (and rightly so).

18-05-2022 2:43pm

Interesting listening to some of the off the ball interviews over lunch with some of the players. Seems Tommy O'Brien is the fastest player this year and Jimmy O'Brien seems to be there or there abouts.

Quite a few players referred to Will Connors as being the strongest tackler which I thought was interesting.

When asked about fitness a few referred to Keenan and Jimmy O'Brien from their 7s days, not mention of some of the forwards, a few of him like Porter and VDF strike me as having huge (almost more rounded fitness).

thegreycity · 18-05-2022 2:45pm

Munster are in the URC too. They made it to the QFs. They weren't able to rest players for three weeks before the game. Leinster being able to do it is not simply a measure of the URC.

Dubinusa · 18-05-2022 2:51pm

Realistically, would sides like LI or Bristol win in the urc? What about Wasps? To me, they are equivalent to Edinburgh or Connacht.

What about Stade France or Pau ? Again average teams. The urc has some fodder, Dragons and Zebre. Leinster play these lads 1 time. Leicester play average and poor teams twice a season. Who fears Bath?

Our system is different and it works. The other provinces may not agree and probably would want more Leinster players. Leinster supply the bulk of international players. The union runs our game, millionaires and billionaires run things in England and France.

Leinster being over or undercooked makes no difference to me. When the lost to Sarries or LR, they were not good enough. Simple. Rested or not they lost to better teams, no excuses. Salaries didn't make an iota of difference last year, we lost to a better team and deservedly so.

There's reasons why there's salary caps in England and France. Owners with mad money would hoard the best players and squads, making the league's forgone conclusions. Prior to covid, when these teams were all making money, there was less grumbling. But, since everyone lost money due to covid, no it's an issue? Look at the quality in these top 14 teams! From S.A and N.Z and on big salaries. Leaving the backend of a squad weak. Less depth and less quality. Leinster identify, develop and produce most of their own players at small salaries. It takes years for the likes of Furlong and Healy to make a comparable salary to those overseas.

This seasons development players will be on minimum salaries. The squad depth lads will be on decent money but, less than what they'd earn in England or France. The whole argument is the same old dogshit every year and yet Leinster have only 1 European cup in a decade. It doesn't hold water.

thegreycity · 18-05-2022 5:02pm

[quote]Leinster being over or undercooked makes no difference to me. When the lost to Sarries or LR, they were not good enough. Simple. Rested or not they lost to better teams, no excuses. Salaries didn't make an iota of difference last year, we lost to a better team and deservedly so.[/quote]

Yea agreed. Similarly I didn't care about the salary cap drama with Sarries the year they beat us. Who cares that they broke the Prem's salary cap? That's a rule from an entirely different competition, it's got nothing to do with being beaten by the better team in Europe.

Interested Observer · 18-05-2022 6:17pm

Skimming through the game again, there was an incident in the second half where Toulouse are trying to attack from fairly deep in their own half, Ntamack spots he has Sheehan in front of him and presumably reckons he can take a front row on the outside. Sheehan pretty much matches him exactly for pace and Ntamack has to give up and reassess his options. Sheehan is ridiculously fast for a front row. Was watching Two Cents Rugby (a NZ based rugby channel) the other day doing a ight preview of the NZ tour and he said Sheehan reminds him of a young Dane Coles which is some compliment.

El_Duderino 09 · 18-05-2022 7:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119081863#Comment_119081863

Yeah Sheehan is a serious prospect. I think he'll overtake RK. Very hard to know what his scrummaging is like without being involved in the actual teams, but his general play is excellent and with experience, I think he'll be the starter.

Interesting dynamics at play though. I heard he was always 2 years behind RK at school and in the leinster academy. Back in school and in the early tears of professional career, age matters as of brings size and experience. Interesting to see what happens those things balance out over the next couple of years.

Neil3030 · 18-05-2022 7:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119080901#Comment_119080901

Another way to look at this - Connacht finished 12th in the URC this season. I don't think they finish lower than 8th in the Premiership. Possibly higher.

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

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