United Rugby Championship announced, beginning September 2021

AdamD · 18-05-2022 5:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119081368#Comment_119081368

FFP is about sustainability, not fairness. Leinster wouldn't have to change a thing under a ruleset like that.

awec · 18-05-2022 5:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119081550#Comment_119081550

What do you mean what is the fix? I don't think there was ever a suggestion that anything needs fixing, it was just Jackman pointing out the obvious fact that Leinster is one of the most expensive squads in world rugby.

The implication I assume being that other teams need to take this fact into account when they compare themselves to Leinster.

Dubinusa · 18-05-2022 5:35pm

You can't force players to play somewhere they don't want to live! It's very simple! How many Leinster players ( came up through the system) are playing at other provinces?

I would think that if players were encouraged or urged to move then it's possible some will move to England or France. Look at the amount of South African players playing in Europe. Why is that? They make a living and are probably on a bigger salary than they would at home.

Charles Piatau was probably the highest paid player for Ulster when he was with the squad! If there was a cap, would Ulster have been able to sign him? Or for that matter, DDA and Snyman in Munster. Maybe Leinster should not be allowed to sign NIQ's.

A salary cap in the urc would probably make the league more competitive, but in what way? Would Dragons or Zebre sign lads Like Sheean or Hume? If wages are restricted in the league, why not go to France?

irelandrover · 18-05-2022 6:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119081627#Comment_119081627

But taxes are important. If one country has a top tax rate of 48% and another a 40% rate then a salary cap that is equal in both countries isn't fair. The country with the lower tax rate can offer a higher net salary, and hence has an advantage to recruiting players. You can look at Monaco playing in Lique 1 as an example.

TaurenDruid · 19-05-2022 11:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119081627#Comment_119081627

Nope, I haven't, because I don't really follow any other sports, apart from Formula 1. Which, although it doesn't have a salary cap, does have a spending limit per team. And those 12 teams come from seven different countries and use four different currencies...

A quick google shows salary caps are far from unusual, though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_cap Admittedly there aren't many international/cross border examples there. But the "Benefits" section makes interesting reading. I mean, I'll be buying my season ticket regardless, but as a spectacle, a season where you've won every home league match bar one, fairly easily, and can afford to send a chunk of academy players off to South Africa for two games because you don't need the points, and can also expect to win the league next year, too... well, it's just not very appealing to neutrals or potential visitors.

Former Former Former · 19-05-2022 12:04pm

Comparing the salary bill at Leinster to that at any English or French team is nonsense, because the Leinster players' salaries include a LOT of international duty.

For example, the England players get about £25,000 per match that is paid by the RFU and obviously does not show up on the club's wage bill. If a first-choice player plays 8 tests a year, that's £200k per annum. I don't know what the French guys get but you'd imagine it's not much less.

So you're comparing apples with spanners and saying the answer is 12.

awec · 19-05-2022 12:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119084652#Comment_119084652

I don't think these semantics have any material bearing on the matter at hand; Leinster is absolutely going to be one of the most expensive squads in the world, and results against them should be viewed through this lens.

Former Former Former · 19-05-2022 12:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119084674#Comment_119084674

It would be an expensive squad if you tried to assemble it from scratch for sure. But that sort of overlooks the fact that of the XV that played at the weekend, 12 were developed in-house, neither Lowe nor JGP were prestige signings, leaving only Henshaw as a "big signing".

It is an expensive squad purely because Leinster turned all these guys into test-level players. It's not an 'expensive squad' in the way Racing or Bristol have expensive squads.

However, if you split the players income between club and international, as is the case in England or France, then it totally changes the argument. It's not even trying to compare like with like.

awec · 19-05-2022 12:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119084725#Comment_119084725

Well yes, Leinster develop them all and this is different to important big contract players.

But they also pay to keep all the players they develop.

Former Former Former · 19-05-2022 12:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119084732#Comment_119084732

It's an accounting construct.

IRFU are paying a huge chunk of the bill and are getting a lot in return for their money. Saying Leinster pay Sexton 800k per year (or whatever it is) is nonsense but that's the argument here.

If costs were properly apportioned, the "Leinster" salary bill wouldn't be that much different from the other provinces.

Dubinusa · 19-05-2022 1:56pm

I'm confused as to why the salary utilized by Leinster is being questioned? Was Buern having a dig? It's tripe, imo. The union won't allow provinces to outbid another province and that probably hurts the prospective move of players.

James Cronin was unsatisfied by his offer last season and although Connacht apparently made an offer, Cronin opted to go to France. Why? Why wouldn't Connacht be allowed to offer a better deal than Munster offered? There was interest from Connacht and it didn't work in their favor due to being constrained by a cap placed by the union.

Are we talking about fairness? Why even get into the finances of Leinster? I suppose it's success and the structure of how Leinster play their Frontline players. If you compare the premiership to the urc what is the salary differential between all sides? What's Zebre and Benetton salary output like? What's Bath paying their mediocre squad? Does everybody get a trophy?

Leinster produce their own players and yes, they would like to retain them? South Africa develop a serious amount of players and can't keep them! Whose fault is that? A salary cap would even things up in Ireland, at Leinsters expense. Seems nuts to me that a successful province is being looked at for producing the majority of their own players, while supplying players to the other provinces.

RichieRich_89 · 19-05-2022 2:20pm

There's always scrutiny of teams that do well. Some people assume it must be because they have an unfair advantage. When the Lions were doing well in Super Rugby there were complaints about the advantage they had from playing home games at altitude. When the Jaguares were challenging in Super Rugby Phil Kearns (?) was whingeing about them basically being the Argentinian national side. When Leinster lost to Toulon in 2015/2016 Leo Cullen was complaining Toulon were "playing by slightly different rules" than everyone else: https://www.the42.ie/leo-cullen-leinster-toulon-champions-cup-2512624-Dec2015/

When these successful teams drop away then the complaints also disappear.

I think there's probably an element of projection from those making the complaints. They aren't very conscientious in their application to their own work, and see cheating or bending the rules as the only way their competition could get ahead of them.

sydthebeat · 19-05-2022 3:02pm

anyway......

i think its a sign of a successful season when there is so much at stake going into the last round of fixtures. Only 6 points separate 2nd and 8th positions, which means loads of possible permutations left as to how the league will finish up, and more importantly, who will secure that valuable second spot in order to get a home semi final. Theres currently 5 different teams who can feasibly come 2nd.

Ulster play sharks with the winner guaranteed a home QF and the looser (most likely, depending on stormers winning) having to play away

my forecast for the run in

MUNSTER 60

ULSTER 59

GLASGOW WARRIORS 51

QFs

Leinster v ~~Glasgow~~

Munster V ~~Edinburgh~~

Stormers v ~~Bulls~~

~~Ulster~~ V Sharks

SFs

Leinster V ~~Sharks~~

Munster V ~~Stormers~~

GF

Leinster V ~~Munster~~

19-05-2022 3:12pm

GF

Leinster V ~~Munster~~

Yes please.

Also looking forward to some proper NH v SH games with full teams.

TaurenDruid · 19-05-2022 5:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119085629#Comment_119085629

Also looking forward to some proper NH v SH games with full teams.

This!

tvpc · 19-05-2022 6:56pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK4ImhFWhbY&ab_channel=SARugbymag.co.za

SA Predictions

Jump_In_Jack · 19-05-2022 7:20pm

I’d say it’ll end up:

Leinster

Stormers

Munster

Ulster

Bulls

Sharks,

Guessing all home wins from quarters up to and including the final.

Neil3030 · 19-05-2022 7:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119086580#Comment_119086580

I like that Keohane guy. The other fella doesn't add a lot.

jacothelad · 19-05-2022 9:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119081228#Comment_119081228

They don't have a salary cap at all. They have a budget which is controlled by the WRU in the main. That they don't have as much doled out as Leinster gets (allegedly) is down to the Union whose annual income is far more than the income of the IRFU.

19-05-2022 9:41pm

The WRU take in more money than the IRFU?? Where does the money come from?

stephen_n · 19-05-2022 10:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119087270#Comment_119087270

Quick google search for 2020 says they made €93,000,000 compared to €81,000,000 for the IRFU.

Zeugnis · 19-05-2022 11:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119081402#Comment_119081402

Well done, you've found the IRFU out, blown their caper with Leinster. The smoked salmon socialists will be yours for breakfast.

Now, tell us what is the relevant market and what anti-competitive conduct/abuse has been committed? In your answer please refer to specific violations of the provisions of Articles 101-106. Thanks.

Downlinz · 19-05-2022 11:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119081132#Comment_119081132

Usually with a salary cap system there's also an allowance for an agreed number of marquee star players to be exempt from the cap so you would probably see a better spread of the top Irish internationals around the provinces than at present. Leinster for example might decide to designate Furlong, Lowe and James Ryan which could create the opportunity for the likes of Van Der Flier or Henshaw to seek a payday at Connacht as they'd have the capacity to pay them more in a designated slot than Leinster in a cap slot.

Personally I think movement like that would be good for the sport in Ireland and help create four competitive teams rather than a rigid pecking order based on a provinces population.

Zeugnis · 19-05-2022 11:43pm

The URC has been a great tournament even if Connacht have had a bad season. Looking forward to next year.

Hope Ulster do the Sharks tomorrow and, yeah, Munster have spent enough time in SA this season - let them get a home quarter final!

Dubinusa · 19-05-2022 11:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119087809#Comment_119087809

You're still punishing Leinster for being better, producing better players etc. Why would VDF want to play for Connacht or Ulster or Munster? Why should Leinster be broken up to help other provinces? It makes no sense. How about the provinces produce their own players?

tvpc · 20-05-2022 1:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119086699#Comment_119086699

Ya Keohane is entertaining

pickarooney · 20-05-2022 6:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119087809#Comment_119087809

How are Connacht getting MORE money in this salary cap scenario?

If the idea is to reduce the total amount available for wages for each team how does that allow Van Der Flier to earn more by moving to another province?

I understand the point about marquee exemptions but that doesn't really add any money to their budget, does it? It just lets them spend it differently. And if Leinster are not allowed pay Van Der Flier what he's currently earning, why would Connacht even offer him more than that as he'd have no bargaining power if his current club is forced to cut his wages when his contract is up.

connemara man · 20-05-2022 7:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119088046#Comment_119088046

I'm guessing the logic is with a salary cap you'd have to effectively scrap the central contract system so all that money would then be spread among the other provinces, which would increase the budgets for everyone including Connacht

irelandrover · 20-05-2022 8:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119088046#Comment_119088046

Because marquee players are outside the salary cap. So van de vlier would be a player paid from the salary cap at leinster but would be a marquee player for connacht so they could offer him more.

Connacht would have a higher amount available for wages than allowed by the salary cap.

I personally think that a salary cap is a good idea. However players that are brought through the club shouldn't have their full wages counted, perhaps only half. So ringrose would be a home grown player for leinster and hence only count half his wages, but henshaw would count fully. Players like sexton would have to be worked out. It would reward clubs for home grown players, and wouldn't force players to move.

Blut2 · 20-05-2022 11:53am

If van der Flier couldn't get a financially competitive contract from Leinster due to them being restricted he wouldn't move to Connacht, he'd move to one of the higher paying French teams that actually compete in Europe. Top tier players want to play with other top tier players on the best possible team.

pickarooney · 20-05-2022 1:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119088178#Comment_119088178

It's hard for me to understand this without figures, even made up ones, but say VDF was on 350k currently and the salary cap came in meaning when his contract was up for renewal Leinster could only offer him 250k. Does the current IRFU rule about provinces not outbidding each other go out the window?

Let's say it does, and Connacht have a free marquee slot for VDF. They offer him 260k. VDF now has a choice of a lower salary in Leinster, a lower salary in Connacht or try to get a move abroad. He's not going to have much leverage either way, he can't force Leinster's hand, Connacht know they don't have to offer him 350k or even 300k. Or maybe they do as there's a breaking point between salary and silverware and familiarity and comfort that will make him choose to leave. What do the figures look like if Edinburgh or Ospreys want to sign him, assuming Ireland will no longer select him if he leaves? A French club might throw 500k at him, use up one of their non-JIFF slots, run him into the ground playing 30 games a season and end his international career.

The salary cap, as I understand it, has two stated aims - to prevent rich owners from buying up all the players and making a lop-sided league and to prevent clubs overstretching themselves to try and keep up. Neither of these really applies to the Irish clubs as they have an internal budget they must balance and no vested interest in boosting one province over another (I may be wrong on this and they might well prefer to have one top-class side bringing in CC finalist cash rather than 3-4 QF sides). And if the salary cap is to be URC-wide, I don't see how it helps the Welsh sides who have enough trouble keeping star players in Wales as it is, or the Scottish sides who are unlikely to benefit from their players moving back or luring players from Ulster or Munster or Scarlets.

All I can see is potentially a further weakened league (if top players move to France), diminished national sides (star players not available for selection), little to no chance of competing in the Champions Cup, unhappy players (less money, more games, no 6N or WC...)

Cookiemunster · 20-05-2022 1:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089418#Comment_119089418

I'm not sure if you noticed, but Ulster are not in the Irish market. They're in the same market as the Scots and the Welsh.

Also, all 4 provinces are directly owned subsidiaries of the IRFU and are largely financed by the IRFU. They're not competing against each other, or anyone else, in any market.

I'm also curious as to whether you know that there are sporting derogations in many EU laws as sporting rules can't meet these laws.

awec · 20-05-2022 2:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089556#Comment_119089556

Yea but not competing with each other is part of the issue.

There is a reason that the odd ownership structure of rugby clubs in the URC would never be permitted in many sports like football.

What we have now is a clear conflict of interest and anti-competitive structure, but it's also potentially the only structure that works, even if it isn't great.

Cookiemunster · 20-05-2022 2:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089689#Comment_119089689

All the provinces are part of the same organisation. They're not separate entities. While they are competing against each other on the field, they are not competing off the field. They are 80% funded by their parent entity, the IRFU. Professional golfers (what a bizarre comparison) are not teams owned by the same entity. They are all individuals making a living through sponsorship and prize money.

Are you going to comment on that fact that Ulster do not under any EU regulations? Or does that fact not suit your argument.

TomsOnTheRoof · 20-05-2022 3:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089805#Comment_119089805

Not saying I agree with their argument but the provinces are separate legal entities, regardless of their ownership being the same.

Neil3030 · 20-05-2022 5:59pm

Am I right to say a Munster TBP win practically guarantees both semi finals taking place in Ireland?

(Or a regular win, assuming Stormers/Sharks don't win with a TBP)

Burkie1203 · 20-05-2022 6:46pm

Benetton walloping Carfiff

Dubinusa · 20-05-2022 6:57pm

Cardiff are gash! Pure dogshit. Good to see the Italians pulverizing them. C'mon Benetton, put 50 on them!!!

OldRio · 20-05-2022 7:33pm

URC, last week of the regular season and so much to play for. Not too shabby for the first year of this competition.

Tut tut you doubters.

Jump_In_Jack · 20-05-2022 7:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119090970#Comment_119090970

Assuming we win the quarter-finals then yes

Burkie1203 · 20-05-2022 7:38pm

62-21 in treviso

Jump_In_Jack · 20-05-2022 7:43pm

69-21

Neil3030 · 20-05-2022 7:47pm

Trivia: last time the current RWC-winning captain played in Ireland?

Cookiemunster · 20-05-2022 8:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119091359#Comment_119091359

I'd guess Martin Johnson in the 6N.

Jump_In_Jack · 20-05-2022 8:03pm

Would be better for the league if Dragons and Cardiff were to merge, and Zebre were to drop out.

Go back to the conference system with 7 teams in each.

This time,

Each conference to have

2xSA, 2xIr, 1xSc, 2xW or 1xW+1xIt.

Play own conference H&A, play other conference HorA, plus 2 more matches to ensure the derbies get played.

SA and Ireland’s 2 extra matches would be against each other,

The lone Welsh team in one conference would play the other two Welsh teams, and they would play one game against a Scottish team or Benetton.

The Scottish teams would play each other once and then one would play Benetton and the other would play a Welsh team.

So Benetton would play one Scottish team and one Welsh team.

Neil3030 · 20-05-2022 8:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119091406#Comment_119091406

Correct you are. Though I actually meant to say "at club level"

(Answer is still Jonno though)

RichieRich_89 · 20-05-2022 8:22pm

McCaw played in the 2013 game.

Eod100 · 20-05-2022 8:38pm

Some score for Benneton

aloooof · 20-05-2022 9:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119091359#Comment_119091359

Jean De Villiers came to mind, but he wasn’t captain at the time.

Neil3030 · 20-05-2022 9:26pm

Pretty sure it was Johnno, when Leicester played in Belfast in the 03/04 pool stages. (Wasn't that the game on a Sunday which drew a protest outside from Paisley et al?)

United Rugby Championship announced, beginning September 2021

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