Fall of the Catholic Church

There are objective measures of what a developed country is, and Ireland is most certainly one.

In developed countries, it is not normal to have the publicly funded education system outsourced to and dominated by a church.

In developed countries, it is not normal to have daily calls to prayer issued on the state broadcaster.

Irish people think these things are normal. They're not.

I'd say the government's in violation of the Constitution if 'freedom from religion in education' isn't practiced in schools. Here's the relevant bit from the Constitution:

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Article 44

1. The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion.
2. The State recognises the special position of the Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church as the guardian of the Faith professed by the great majority of the citizens.
3. The State also recognises the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, the Methodist Church in Ireland, the Religious Society of Friends in Ireland, as well as the Jewish Congregations and the other religious denominations existing in Ireland at the date of the coming into operation of this Constitution.
4. Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen.
5. The State guarantees not to endow any religion.
6. The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status.
7. Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.
8. Every religious denomination shall have the right to manage its own affairs, own, acquire and administer property, movable and immovable, and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes.
9. The property of any religious denomination or any educational institution shall not be diverted save for necessary works of public utility and on payment of compensation.

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So, #1 and especially #2 probably should go, are are likely to be the excuse used for ringing the bell on the RTE. Likewise, #7 is in violation by the schools if they're forcing religious education on students (which they are, so indirectly the state is prejudicially forcing religion on Students by paying for instructors and classroom time.)

Also, that preamble. Get over yourselves.

You need to update your sofrware - articles 2 and 3 have already gone.

I’m curious as to how you read #7 and drew this conclusion from what it says -

Likewise, #7 is in violation by the schools if they're forcing religious education on students (which they are, so indirectly the state is prejudicially forcing religion on Students by paying for instructors and classroom time.)

Religious instruction isn’t being forced on anyone. It’s right there in the article as you quoted it -

Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.

Children’s right to attend a school receiving public money, without attending religious instruction, is not prejudicially affected by any legislation providing State aid for schools.

If your child doesn't want to receive the religious education then they mostly have to sit outside the class and wait for it to be over. This is wrong as it encourages bullying by singling out the child as different, and also because it is a dereliction of the teachers obligation to teach them whilst in school.

The amount of time devoted to preparing for first holy communion is not insubstantial so represents a significant loss of education for those who abstain. It really should not take place within schools at this stage of the countries development.

In a developed country?

It really is amazing that this and the Preamble are still in our constitution. We removed blasphemy yet as a state are somehow to acknowledge that "worship" is due, and hold his (which god? and isn't that sexist against godesses?) name in reverence - what does that mean, surely freedom of speech and removal of blasphemy mean nobody can be required to hold the name of any god in "reverence".

Load of nonsense.

It still means the time of the kids opting out of religion is wasted with make-work.

It should be after the school day like any after-school activity a child can opt to take part in or not.

No-one is ignoring the point that religion is embedded throughout the day in religious schools. That is exactly the issue that needs to change. Students shouldn't be indoctrinated in one particular religion, simply because they've chosen to go to their local school, or because there is no ET school within reach, or because the ET school is oversubscribed.

Students aren’t indoctrinated into one particular religion because they chose to go to their local school though. They’re indoctrinated into one particular religion because that’s the form of education their parents have chosen for them in accordance with the Irish Constitutional Law regarding the Family. I know you’re familiar with it.

As an aside, there are more patrons involved in the Irish education system than just the Catholic Bishops of Ireland and Educate Together. It’s not as though those two forms of education are the only choices parents or guardians have for their children.

And before you retort that parents can’t make those commitments due to having to work, I know of parents who are unemployed who support your point of view. I’m sure if I know of them, you have to know of them, and they have as much an equal right as I do to be supported by the State in the education of their children according to their values, beliefs and world views. The parents I know though aren’t as motivated as you are to lobby Government to uphold their right to freedom from religion for themselves and their children.

Not a bit, you asked me were those views normal, I gave you plenty of evidence to support my assertion that they are indeed normal. I’m not strawmanning when you’re arguing in favour of depriving people of State support in providing for the education of their children in accordance with their values, beliefs and world views. Everyone is as welcome as you are to use State resources to indoctrinate other peoples children with their views. Your biggest problem is that your views just don’t have any real, tangible support. Your views are expectedly popular in an online echo chamber, but outside of it, what have you actually achieved in the last 40 years in terms of getting religion out of schools?

We really are going round in circles when you’re as fond of the word “should” as I am of using the term religious ethos schools. The difference being of course that my opinion is grounded in reality, whereas yours is grounded in a belief… ain’t that ironic! 🤔

Fwiw though, the children are the Church, as in they are members of the Church, and their parents are members of the Church, and they are recognised and supported by the State, which is also comprised of the very same people. It’s one of the best things about a representative democracy, that no matter whether anyone is or isn’t a taxpayer, it doesn’t give them any more say in how public funds are administered, than anyone else. Those decisions are made by representatives elected by the people.

There’s no choice involved when 95% of schools are Catholic run.

And interesting to see the traditional catholic values of victim blaming shining through, where it is apparently my fault now that the Catholic Church is still clinging on to the power to indoctrinate children in schools.

And just to be clear, it your view that masturbation and gay sex is not normal?

You realise that lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans people actually exist, right?

And where is this new curriculum you mentioned please?

I use the word 'shpuld' because these things should be happening in secular countries but are NOT happening in these one.

By your second paragraph you seem to accept Ireland as a non-secular religious democracy. Fair enough.

The State can Support religion withput pushing a dogma or allowing one to be pushed on its educational facilities.

Representative democracy is NOT - and I have said this before - making every decision based on popularity.

Case in point - MUP.