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Softening house market?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,031 ✭✭✭lomb


    I would have said your spot on 6 months ago, now Im not so sure. US mortgage rates have hit 5.5% from under 3. They are talking of matching US Fed Reserve rates in Europe due to euro dollar depreciation importing inflation. That means that Euro mortgage rates have to hit 5.5 or 6% sooner rather than later. If its a total monetary collapse from inflation or high interest rates then its going to be high rates.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,274 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    theres a major disconnection between asset markets and the general economy, again, the ownership of assets is heavily skewed, a significant proportion of corporate earnings has been coming from financialised activities such as share buy backs etc, asset markets have been propped up by polices such as qe, and since asset ownership is skewed,.......



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,274 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    mortgage rates may certainly hit that level but central bank rates simply cannot, it would more than likely lead to a catastrophic collapse, and central banks know this, we have to also remember, our current inflationary pressures have little or nothing to do about the money supply, its purely a supply and energy shock, raising rates wont solve this.... this has the potential to become very scary, very quickly!



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,031 ✭✭✭lomb


    Correct, my apologies, central bank rates could be 1-2% behind. But it is still possible for mortgage rates to hit 9% especially on buy to let which already seems to run markups of 4% above par. My prediction is 2022 Irish property peaks and then will crash bottoming out in 5 years. It is incredibly exposed by short term variable and fixed rates.

    Inflation currently is a supply shock but as you say if it isnt nipped then it could cascade and there be hyperinflation especially if confidence is lost. Governments are incapable of balancing books. There really shouldnt have been any bond buying or asset purchases by any central bank. Its not their job to supress government borrowing costs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23 Nero2900


    People wont be looking to buy to avoid rising rates. They will be waiting to avail of lower prices.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 23 Nero2900


    Of course, every aspect of the world economy is related to the next.

    People who say otherwise are clueless.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    If there was not such a bad supply issue I would agree but you will see people being told by banks as rates rise. "Ye know Bill and Mary rates will be 1% higher in 12 months time so on a mortgage of 250k thats 2500 extra a year on interest". Throw in the current rent prices as their alternative which is currently and will remain higher for the foreseeable future or until interest rates for buying climb above 3% to have rents compete with a mortgage. Unfortunately people have to live somewhere



  • Administrators Posts: 53,749 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Think interest rates at banks will have to go a lot higher than 3% for rents to become cheaper than mortgages.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Yeah quite possibly 4/5% all depending on location. I think anyone on here telling people not to buy (or to buy) and pointing at an international stock market and saying this is why prices will drop and not bringing in this countries macro issues such as p1ss poor supply, very high demand due to people not buying over the last 4/5 years due to a trifecta of shocks (Brexit, Covid, Ukraine) as well as our emigration inwards numbers, add in the crazy high cost of rentals and the fact that Irish savings accounts are also stuffed full of cash. I cant see there being a quick fall at any stage over the next 2 to 3 years. But I would not tell anyone to buy or sell people will have their own set of circumstances where buying or selling will be the only choice for them



  • Administrators Posts: 53,749 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Waiting to buy might make sense if you believe prices will fall at least as much as the total cost of rent will be during the waiting period, AND you factor in any interest rate rises, AND you will be unaffected by any future reductions in lending by banks, AND your personal situation (outside of the financial considerations) can work with the insecurity of renting.

    Otherwise, it's a very difficult decision, that some like to pretend is straightforward and easy.

    It's not a decision I'd like to be making right now, I'm sure buyers, particularly those with families, are finding this a stressful time.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,504 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    plus the stock market is not a gauge of the direction of the property market , there have been far more bear markets in stocks than in property , there was a fairly severe bear market from the year 2000 to early 2003 , during that time property prices rose significantly , the two are not inextricibly linked , 2008 was systemic and unprecedented , credit completely froze



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,504 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    personally i would not be surprised if prices paused for eighteen months or so , i would not hold off on buying however right now if i found the right place for me



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,007 ✭✭✭Shelga


    I just bought a house. I’m 35 next month. I think it’s continuously overlooked here that it’s never just about house prices, it’s about when you need to buy, based on your personal circumstances/ age / goals etc. Even if I was guaranteed prices will go down 20% over the next 5 years, I’m just not willing or mentally able to live in my mother and father’s house until I’m 40. I want to have a life, potentially a family.

    What I need to do is stop logging in to this forum! :)



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,504 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx




  • Administrators Posts: 53,749 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Yes exactly.

    And if you weren't living with your folks, you would have to offset the cost of rent against any savings, and in the end you need to figure if this would even be worth it. You will possibly still make financial savings, but will they be substantial enough to basically delay this stage of your life for 5 years?

    And finally, once you hit mid-30s you start hitting mortgage term limitations when applying.

    There is no obvious decision here for anyone. More power to those who are in a position to roll the dice and wait, but the insinuation that only fools or misguided people are proceeding now is really wide of the mark.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    35 living with the parents. You must have good mental stamina



  • Posts: 0 Callie Loud Acid


    Wrong thread



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,274 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ...but adjusting rates simply wont solve these supply and energy problems, its just gonna make the whole situation much worse, we truly have to get away from this thinking of balancing the books, excess credit has ultimately brought us here, it hasnt worked, and the only way to counteract this is by running deficits, but not using this money to simply inflate the price of assets such as property, but actual use it to create new assets, such as new properties. polices such as qe have also ultimately failed, we cannot keep using our financial institutions in both the public and private domains, to just keep inflating certain markets, as this is catastrophically failing, for all of us!



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    House prices started to fall around 2001. Didnt stay that way for long though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    If you are unsure about buying but feel it is right for you, Ask all of your friends who have ever bought a house at any time how they feel right now about having bought the house. I think it will settle your mind.



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  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,921 ✭✭✭hometruths


    I am pretty bearish on the market, but this is a very fair point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,504 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    temporary reaction post 9-11 and very short lived , they also fell for one quarter in 2020 post the onset of Covid , they fell maybe three or four percent but then bounced back hard by next quarter



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,504 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    you never really know if a purchase is correct at the time of buying , it takes a while to know if you made the correct call , if it was anyway different , everyone would buy at the exact right time



  • Registered Users Posts: 210 ✭✭Mr Hindley


    I'm also quite bearish - I just look at what's happening to prices in NZ and Canada, and starting to in the U.S., and think 'are we really THAT different..?'

    Having said that, while I hesitated this week, a property that I really liked went sale agreed, and I am now sort of kicking myself. Only time will tell if I made the right or wrong call.

    Interesting though - when I viewed on Monday, there were two active offers, another person coming to view on Thu, and an open viewing listed for Saturday. The agent talked to me Tuesday lunchtime to see where I was at and I said I liked the property but had some concerns over the price point. By Tuesday afternoon, the place was closed to new offers (and seemed to be down to one offer) and by yesterday lunchtime was formally gone sale agreed. I suspect the sellers decided to bank the offer they had rather than wait even a couple of days longer - maybe sensing the top of the market.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,921 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Forget about the week to week! I think JimmyVik's point is whilst there may have been those regretting a purchase on a short term basis, on a long term basis all those who did purchase a house are thankful they did, even if that was at height of 2006/7.

    Which I suspect is very true, and may give some comfort to those who are hesitating pulling the trigger on a purchase now.

    However it is important to understand that the reason it has turned out OK for them, is thanks to successive governments having their backs, and if you are to bank on the same thing happening in the future you'd need confidence that future government policy will be more of the same.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,031 ✭✭✭lomb


    Not necessarily. The expensive homes in D4 etc prices were destroyed and never recovered. A old 3 bed semi that was 2.5 million now sells for 900k. Same in D6. Some houses never recovered. Some people have lost 1.5 million and sold up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,077 ✭✭✭JohnnyChimpo


    Simple answer then - don't buy an old 3bed semi for 2.5 million



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,031 ✭✭✭lomb


    Normally the rich are the last to be conned but their weakpoint is greed and the ability to get deals done and draw credit. Thats a fatal flaw when it comes to property.

    Its never been a bad time to buy property that cashflows. And the latter point is the key meaning cheap property like a 1 bed flat will always be solvent even if prices wane.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Amadan Dubh


    Waiting to buy isn't just about prices, it's about supply increasing. Over the next few years we will see significant supply come on stream. I think it was the right decision to hold off buying once it became clear after a few months of restrictions that the market had hit a euphoric phase. And I think holding off for a year from now (at least a year) will be a good decision.



This discussion has been closed.
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