attic conversion not certified

Mad_maxx · 21-05-2022 10:25pm #1

bought a house a few years ago , had it valued seven weeks ago and decided to sell , the auctioneer claimed that many of the three bed semis he sold in the area had converted attics which were not certified so was quick to assuage my fears that the house might be limited to cash buyers , he claimed the house would still be mortgageable ?

anyway , the people who agreed to buy the house employed a surveyor and he came back saying the conversion is a problem and papers will be needed ?

i can get it certified , the very least though is that it would probably delay the sale by six months if not a year

this would not be a disaster of any kind but obviously id prefer if a buyer could get mortgage approval despite the attic conversion not being certified , perhaps its just a case of angling for a discount and an over orthodox surveyor ?

my own surveyor claims once the other surveyor saw the on suite , it was a stonewall blatant example of a storage area being used as a habitable space and thus fire regs were breached , my tenants are still in the house so did not move beds out of the attic , as the auctioneer assured me there would be no obstacle to a mortgage with an uncertified attic , I didnt make any moves to remove beds or anything

L1011 · 21-05-2022 10:29pm

Virtually no solicitor is going to tell their clients to buy a house with an uncertified attic conversion - so the mortgageability is not the sole problem here.

Mad_maxx · 21-05-2022 10:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119095467#Comment_119095467

not what I asked , solicitors go weak kneed about anything which isnt pure vanilla and whiter than a bishops sheets so tend to advise against in these circumstances

question is whether an uncertified attic conversion ( most attic conversions out there are uncertified ) renders a house unmortgageable ? , will a bank green light purchase ?

houseyhouse · 21-05-2022 10:48pm

I know somebody with a converted attic with en suite which is used as a bedroom. Just got a new mortgage on it. The surveyor did report to the bank that the attic area appeared to be used as a bedroom so she told bank she was using it as a walk in wardrobe and that was the end of it.

starbaby2003 · 21-05-2022 10:53pm

Is the conversion certified by an engineer ? Outside of the habitable component you need to brace the attic if it has been renovated as a ‘store’ room.

Mad_maxx · 21-05-2022 10:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119095539#Comment_119095539

this particular EA who advised me that there would be no obstacle to a mortgage is someone who is very well informed , suspect what happened here is the agreed buyer employed an over zealous and orthodox surveyor , funny thing is , this a deal which involves a high degree of compromise , the surveyor they employed was certainly not an ally here

my tenants are buying a house of party A

party A are buying my house

party A sold ( agreed to sell ) their house to my tenants a little cheaper if i didnt put my own house to the open market

looks like this will torpedo the whole deal , pity

I dont mind spending thirty grand if need be to regularise the situation as a property certified attic bedroom will add significant value and make the house an official four bed but il loose a year and my tenants wont get to buy the house locally they want

Gumbo · 22-05-2022 10:44am

It will need to be certified as exempt from planning or compliant with a valid planning application.

It will

also need to be certified as compliant with any Building Regulations as required

whether it’s official storage or not.

Just pay an engineer for a cert now. Should only cost €5-700 give or take.

adocholiday · 22-05-2022 10:57am

I was a buyer in a similar situation. The original owner converted the attic but ours will never be compliant with regs because the ceiling height is too low. He just removed all the furniture and had his engineer certify that it was an exempt storage space. That was good enough for our solicitor and the bank, and the sale went through with no issue.

Mad_maxx · 22-05-2022 11:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096425#Comment_119096425

suspect the couple who have agreed to buy my house will simply employ another surveyor who is less zealous and orthodox , I might ask my tenants to remove all traces of bedroom furniture from the attic , my tenants are buying the house of the couple who are buying my house , its a sort of triangular deal and i want it to work for everyone as i really like the tenants who live in my house but they cant afford my house or any house in this estate unfortunately

Mad_maxx · 22-05-2022 11:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096388#Comment_119096388

id pay 5 - 7 k if i thought i could keep everyone involved in this three way deal , the estate agent seems to have qualifications in engineering and is very sharp so il probably hear from him next week , tenant just had an informal chat with the other parties surveyor and he told her " it was a problem " and " papers would be required "

if i needed to do significant changes in order to regularise , it would not be the end of the world for me , i bought the house cheap but you couldnt keep three parties involved in a plan for several months to a year

Gumbo · 22-05-2022 12:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096532#Comment_119096532

You won’t need to spend 7k unless it was converted using lollipop sticks!

Im assuming guys been converted properly from a structural point of view?

A cert to say it’s storage only will suffice for conveyance purposes.

Mad_maxx · 22-05-2022 3:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119096802#Comment_119096802

actually whoever converted made a good effort at it and it looks well finished but I imagine it would still take several grand to have it certified as a fourth bedroom , you wont do much for 5 k , certifying it as only for storage is of course different and if that allows us to proceed , that is fine as its been priced to sell as a three bed , one hopes the surveyor having seen the bed in the attic will not staunchly claim its been used in an illegitimate manner , my surveyor speculated that he might have made a conclusion based on the fact both radiators and an on suite are in the third floor

my surveyor has never visited the house as i was content with things as they were this past few years

Gumbo · 22-05-2022 4:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119097506#Comment_119097506

Agh then this is a different situation altogether.

If you need it certified as an additional bedroom you have significant structural and fire safety provisions to put in place.

Particularly with the stair case, the floors and walls etc

https://assets.gov.ie/220400/3efededb-832c-4757-945e-066e20df9e46.pdf

Mad_maxx · 22-05-2022 4:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119097846#Comment_119097846

I know that , the auctioneer brokered the deal based on the house being a three bed however , perhaps the surveyor can still argue that the attic room being in practice used as a habitable space renders the house in breach of compliance and thus will not sign off , if this happens , I might as well go the whole nine yards and do whatever is required to make it officially a four bed and put it fresh to market in a year or so , it would command a higher premium if officially made a four bed anyway

would have been nice had the surveyor taken a " hear no evil - see no evil "attitude but looks like they havent , even the bed was not in the attic room , the on suite made it perhaps too blatant ?

Gumbo · 22-05-2022 5:26pm

Hard to tell based on just the text.

Would like to see a pic. Does the en-suite have sufficient ventilation too?

Do you have the required 2.4m head height over 50% of the room? Also, most planning development plans now don’t allow habitable space in the loft where that room is solely lit by a roof light. So a dormer may be required also.

Smouse156 · 22-05-2022 6:21pm

I just got my attic converted on my new build. It’s sufficient height 2.4m and size to get certified if I liked. However, 95% don’t bother as all doors in the house would need to be changed to fire doors. The attic door is a fire door. There would also need to be an escape window low down which would be dangerous for a child.

Getting a mortgage is not an issue, as most people just claim it’s an extra living room. Technically it can’t be advertised as a bedroom until it’s certified. It would only be an issue for a landlord if they claimed the attic was a bedroom and telling tenants they could sleep there. The vast majority it’s their family home.

eusap · 23-05-2022 8:34am

The only issue is if its been sold as a Bedroom, as others have said if its being sold as a 3 bed with store room and not a 4 bed. The bank will value it off a 3 bed and not make any allowance for the store room. So its not an issue for banks (assuming no planning breeches)

Mad_maxx · 23-05-2022 12:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119100778#Comment_119100778

might just have been the surveyor having an informal chat with my tenant and giving her chapter and verse , I bought the house at auction a few years ago so no architect had signed off on the place but i might well have to get my engineer to inspect and sign off irrespective of attic room and what it is currently being used for ?

the deal was certainly negotiated on the basis of the house being a three bed , a relative simple paperwork exercise might resolve this , hopefully wont delay things to long , as i said , three parties to keep involved here or else it all falls down

eusap · 23-05-2022 3:59pm

To not delay things best to call your engineer and ask his advise, he can call out and check the standard of the work and certify it as storage only. And also recommend what might need to be done to make it a bedroom etc...

In the end the bank are worried about will we get our money back in the case of a default or will the county council want the development demolished. Have never heard of a council wanting a home owner to reverse an attic conversion except if they put windows to the front of the property

seamus · 23-05-2022 4:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119097950#Comment_119097950

Short answer is yes, the surveyor can claim non-compliance regardless of the advertisement. The surveyor is getting paid either way and their insurance is on the line if it comes back on them. So a nod/wink arrangement is not in their interests.

At the end of the day, the surveyor is not really concerned with what has been advertised, just what exists in the property. After all, you could put up a building in your back garden with a kitchenette, a toilet and a bed and claim it's just a fancy shed, but in reality it may be another habitable space, which requires planning permission.

I would say with near-certainty that the ensuite is what has tripped you up. A cheaper alternative to getting it fully certified may be to pull out the ensuite (bear with me). Remove the furniture, put it in the opposite corner, cap off the drains and the pipes, et voila! If the new owners wish to refit the bathroom, they can fire away.

tscul32 · 23-05-2022 5:26pm

Tried to buy a house recently with two rooms in the attic that were used as bedrooms (bungalow so not a third floor), but advertised, and emphasized by EA, as storage rooms as the ceiling height was not sufficient for bedrooms. Had engineer cert of compliance with building regs for the extension that the attic was part of.

Would it not be a case that this would be enough. In the op's case, is there something written in regulations that you cannot plumb a toilet in the attic? Why would removing the en suite make a difference? Once it's being valued with the attic as a storage room why would it matter what you do with it after. Can the surveyor prove that someone will definitely try to use it as a bedroom?

If I put a mattress in my kitchen and sleep there is that something that a surveyor would include as non compliant in a survey or would that be my own business.

Just trying to see what the actual issue is here or is it just that there's no engineer sign off on the conversion of the attic to a usable room, i.e. floors, window, plaster...

Mad_maxx · 23-05-2022 6:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119103559#Comment_119103559

I suppose its a bit like seeing a few different doctors , you might receive a different diagnosis from all three , some surveyors are more orthodox than others , some are chapter and verse while some are more pragmatic about the realities of what happens , at the end of the day the vast majority of attic conversions are not certified yet the dogs in the street know that families allows people sleep in said attic

no local authority is serious about enforcing regulations here

Claw Hammer · 23-05-2022 6:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119103781#Comment_119103781

Its time you grew up. You bought a non-compliant property. when you are buying one, nobody cares about the regulations. When you are selling, everybody cares.

Wildly Boaring · 23-05-2022 6:44pm

No surveyor, orthodox or not, is going to ignore uncertified rooms in an attic.

These type of properties are sold with a cert for a storage area and with the number of bedrooms in the original build.

You'd be some moron of a surveyor to do any different. Any fire would see you in the high court and uninsurable.

Mad_maxx · 23-05-2022 7:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119103847#Comment_119103847

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119103889#Comment_119103889

" bought a non compliant property "

non compliant in what way ?

bar the attic conversion , the house is compliant , the question is whether the attic conversion not being certified is an obstacle ?

if it is , il simply regularise the situation and sell further down the line

seamus · 23-05-2022 9:55pm

Would it not be a case that this would be enough. In the op's case, is there something written in regulations that you cannot plumb a toilet in the attic? Why would removing the en suite make a difference?

Because it's not really about what it is currently being used for. I refer to the shed example. You could build a whole granny flat in the back garden, fitted kitchen, toilet, couches and bed, but claim that you're only using it for storage. And that may actually be true, but the fact that it has been adapted as a habitable space means it needs to be compliant.

Stairs up to an attic space, nice floor, velux windows, that's a fancy storage space. Radiators.....ehh, OK you want to keep out the damp. Toilet....now you've got a habitable space.

Yes, it is all a bit opinion-based, but at the end of the day an attic with an ensuite is no longer storage space. At the very least it is being used as an extra bathroom, which means that it now forms part of the living space of the house. And therefore must be compliant.

You'll even get away with have a desk with computers set up and a few sockets. That's just how they're being stored. But there's no way around having a jacks up there, and presumably a shower too. You don't have these facilities in a storage space.

While it sounds ridiculous that removing the toilet furniture would suddenly make it not a living space, you can see that it does. Now it's just a storage space with the potential to be converted to habitable space. Once sold, it becomes the buyers' decision.

the question is whether the attic conversion not being certified is an obstacle

That really comes down to the buyers' bank. The solicitor will advise against purchasing a house without the proper certs, but they can't block the sale. If someone really wants the house they will often purchase in spite of the solicitor's advice. Only the bank can block the sale by refusing the mortgage if they're not happy.

tscul32 · 23-05-2022 10:36pm

So is it all subjective then. A surveyor can say that there aren't proper certs for the room because it's being used as a bedroom by current owners but not certified as a bedroom. But there's nothing to say that the new buyers will use it as a bedroom. Can a surveyor say that it's non compliant just cos they believe the new buyers will use it as a bedroom. Just seems very opinion based, I would have thought it should be more fact based. The buyers might have no intention of using the rooms for anything other than storage/occasional use.

We didn't get the house in the end but was just curious. There is a shower room between the two rooms with a dormer window that wasn't in the planning. I don't see the dormer not getting retention, been there for 10+ years and no property behind for overlooking and a neighbouring property recently got retention for building an extension much bigger than planning so a dormer doesn't seem like too big a deal. We also wouldn't have necessarily needed a mortgage so could have dealt with retention ourselves afterwards if we wanted to. Just curious as to why a surveyor would claim non compliance if the build had engineering sign off. Surely it's up to the owner what furniture they put in a room. What if we wanted to use the rooms just for storage. Surveyor could claim non compliance just because the current owner put a bed in there. Non compliance with what, exactly?

Mad_maxx · 23-05-2022 10:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119104634#Comment_119104634

the bank only care about the valuation surely ?

what is in the attic does not influence the valuation ,price was negotiated based on the house being a three bed

tscul32 · 23-05-2022 10:40pm

That's the way I'd see it. Survey doesn't go anywhere near the bank anyway. Still don't get non compliant with what?

Mad_maxx · 23-05-2022 10:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119104811#Comment_119104811

my surveyor told me a few days ago that these inspections are often about how strictly the surveyor interprets what they see so it is rather subjective , this guy sounds quite zealous and orthodox , reality is I could pull out the bathroom , let the zealot look at it again , get the result i want , new owners move in and stick the toilet back in again

bureaucratic pantomime

tscul32 · 23-05-2022 10:42pm

"Bureaucratic pantomime" - I like that.

attic conversion not certified

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