Fall of the Catholic Church

Problem is, it's been such a bad, oppressive, regressive religion and completely arrogant in its ability to organize and oppress it's become impossible to cut any slack to its adherents. An organization that flouts the laws in countries where it is incorporated is a criminal enterprise. I don't care that it does charitable things - there's lots of charities. And as we've seen in Ireland, it still has a death grip over the most important aspects of society, education and health care. Only recently, perhaps in the last 20 years or so, has that grip been loosened slightly but as you can see from the defenders flocking to it here the grip is still strong.

Being pedantic about it, you were not born a Christian, you were born into a Christian family and tradition - that's why you are a Christian. If you had been born into another culture you would be singing the praises of another fable with equal fervor.

In an earlier post Igotadose, I explained my position on it...I follow a Man who after 3 years preaching, was crucified, died and was buried and rose from the dead 3 days later, and that's what it means to me. And everything that you have said, I agree 100% with you. Because throughout human history , corrupt men have used religion ( and anything else they they could ) to manipulate and control their fellow human beings. To this day it goes on. If the same spotlight was focused on Irish politicians / businesses since the foundation of the state, it would come up with some very interesting tales. That grip as you call it, has been weakening for a lot longer than the last 20 years, I'd say a lot longer, 50 year's or perhaps more. What Countrys now have the Church incorporated in their Laws, anywhere in the world? ( Islam is excluded, because it is the Law ( Sharia) ) in any Islamic Country. Yes I under stand the reason why most ( but not all) people will not cut any slack to its adherents and that was maybe the most damaging effect on the Church, and especially where the Church is providing help in Hospitals and Schools, but they don't get any credit or praise for that. A Lebanese friend of mine, who was educated by the Jesuits in Beirut, is presently educating his children in the same school. And cannot speak highly enough of it. Likewise, in Damascus and Aleppo, their schools are packed with pupils to the extent that their are waiting lists. So its not the same situation everywhere.

ok yes there are a lot of unknowns out there but do you really accept a biblical explanation? A man made bible too. My question was do you believe it all? Even half of it? 

I know this has nothing to do with Rome Inc but I often wonder do the clergy believe half of it. The evidence would suggest otherwise.

Man made? No its not man made ( except in the physical sense) For Christians, the Bible in the literal Word of God, and was written down by the Disciples as it was directed by Christ, Remember, the Jews were known as the People of the Book ( something that did not happen in Mohammads time...the Quran was written many years after Mohammads death, and by assembling different scripts ) and that's it. You cannot change it. How it has come to be interpreted over time is another thing though, and I'm no expert in theology. But the 10 commandments, are pretty clear, so those ? Yes. I'm hoping that I wont have to kill anyone or thieve from them either.

Can you explain a bit further about the Clergy not believing half of it, and your evidence?

But, they're not doing a particularly good job on either; Ireland's life expectancy is nothing exceptional. Ireland's educational achievements, the same. It's just a monopoly given to an ungoverned, criminal organization. Here's an example for you: Planned Parenthood in the US provides lots of medical care for pregnant women. Consider the abuse it receives from Church adherents; why should the church be praised? They're teaching abuse of medical providers ffs.

My point about not cutting its adherents any slack is, this has gone on for millenia and nothing changes. Time for change. It's only the rise of modern communication that's prevented monopolies like the RCC for controlling the discourse. Remember that the RCC excommunicated the guy that first published the Bible in a language other than Latin. It's all in favor of sharing the Gospel - through their officials (Priests.) Challenge that and they lower the boom.

Belief should accept the facts of a thing, and the history of the Gospels is well understood at this stage.

Your exact phrase was indoctrination rather than dogma. You seem to have backed away from that…

Respectfully Shoog, you have that arseways. My exact phrase was dogma, as that was the phrase used. I pointed out that I could have referred to the posters efforts as indoctrination, and provided the definition of indoctrination.

I could have pointed out that your efforts amount to inculcation and indoctrination, but you only asked for how your views would be considered dogmatic. For the purposes of avoiding any quarrelling over the definitions of words, I trust that Merriam-Webster is sufficient?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dogmatic

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inculcation

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/indoctrination

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dogmatism

There was no slight of hand on my part, and there was certainly no attempt to avoid explaining how teaching about homosexuality is indoctrination. In the same post, I went as far as to provide an example of how it had already been tried with what the Bills sponsors called the “Provision of Objective Sex Education Bill” -

You wouldn’t be the first to make such an attempt. A handful of TDs will regularly take a punt at it, seems to be their way of signalling that they’re still alive 🙄

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2018/34/

I won’t reproduce the entire contents of the objectives contained in the bill, but the kicker about it was the attempt to indoctrinate children in schools, “regardless of the characteristic spirit of the school” -

(c) the curriculum is delivered in a factual and objective manner in all schools regardless of the characteristic spirit of the school

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/bill/2018/34/eng/initiated/b3418d.pdf

Contrary to Section 9 of the Education Act which outlines the functions of a school -

(d) promote the moral, spiritual, social and personal development of students and provide health education for them, in consultation with their parents, having regard to the characteristic spirit of the school…

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1998/act/51/section/9/enacted/en/html

Rather than avoiding it, as you suggest (and I can understand from your point of view why it looks like I avoided it), I tackled it head on, and again when @Igotadose raised the question about discrimination against girls in schools and made the point about the possibility of education being dumbed down and the impact of this upon society - I pointed to a recent example in the UK by way of making the point that discrimination against girls still exists in schools, only the perpetrators have changed. The stories I referred to as having heard from women who attended schools in the 80’s and 90’s were that the Nuns really did a number on them, and the other girls joined in, in many cases, in all girls schools. It wasn’t just in the “Mother and Baby” homes that girls endured horrific abuse.

Andrew advised that I not believe everything I read in LBC, but that wasn’t the reason I linked specifically to the article in LBC. The reason I linked to that article was because I couldn’t bring myself to link to the more comprehensive article written in the Daily Mail, with an almost obligatory at this point, accompanying photo of JK Rowlings rather dour visage. I believe it’s more colloquially known as a condition called Resting Bitch Face -

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resting_bitch_face

Yes, like thousands of other Irish kids. Then the teens and early manhood, and beyond, with religion largely forgotten or lip service paid when necessary. Then out into the larger world wide world, where I had many experiences, both good and bad, and in some cases, inexplicable. And it was these experiences that convinced me of the existence of God. And childhood religious teaching came to the fore, and the facts fit for me. And now in this modern day and age, yes, I believe. And what do I believe? That there is much more to life than x Nr of years here on Earth... the real story begins after death. But that's just me, and in this part of the World, we are free to form our own conclusions about life, death and Religion. For conversation sake, do you believe that life ends in death?🙂

Why do you reckon your god created a universe that includes childhood cancer?

You might remember the story of Adam and Eve, who lived in the Garden of Paradise, until Eve persuaded Adam to take the forbidden fruit, and they were kicked out into a world where they would have tp earn their bread by the sweat of their brow. and suffer sorrow and pain? Yup, thats right. Unless you follow the theory that everything in existence is just happenstance?

My Parents, Grandparents, myself and my children plus many thousand others paid and are still paying taxes, so we should not have any say in how OUR Taxes are spent??? That does not count in your book???

And yes, I've often thought that if I was born in Pakistan / Afghanistan, that I'd be a Muslim but there we go, accident of Birth?? ( or deliberate plan?) I don't know, but I expect that at some time it will all be explained to me.

And again, here we go......all the Church, for 2'000 years were nothing but a criminal enterprise..... that old refrain is wearing a bit thin, TBH.

Seriously? A grown man in 2022 believing that twaddle and using it as get out of jail free card for childhood cancer.

You just accept everything without question, the early school investment really paid off for your benefactors, you're a fan for life.

»To my understanding you either have nothing after death, or you are reincarnated. There is more objective evidence for reincarnation than for a physical heaven so I reserve judgement on it. The idea of reincarnation is somewhat appealing - but the Buddhists called it the wheel of suffering - meaning their was no escape from the sufferings of incarnate life which puts a bit of a different slant on it.

In my experiences of shamanism I personally had experiences of the Upper world, Other world (a world which exists slightly offset from our experienced world) and Lower world that make up the shamanistic universe. In a superficial way the upper world is like Heaven and the Lower world is a primal archatypal world of uncorrupted nature which is nearest to the christian hell. However in shamanism there is no value judgement about the value of the Upper and Lower worlds - they are all equally important and omnipresent and accessible to everyone every second of the day. The Monotheistic religions took the real and tangible Shamanistic universe and corrupted it to Heaven and Hell. Since I know the reality of the Upper and Lower worlds and their true nature - I choose to reject the notion of Heaven and Hell of reward and Punishment.

Shamanism is the oldest belief system in the world and universal in its form, it is possible for anyone to experience its reality in a direct way - though what that reality represents in physical terms is open to debate.

And your explanation for all the cancers , wars etc is what??? A grown man i (me) n 2022 has had a pretty long life, and has had a lot of personal experiences which caused him to think long and hard about Life, God and the whole damn bit, and came to the conclusion that God does exist. And the world we live in, full of trouble and strife, is not meant to be our permanent home. What do you think the purpose of Life is??? Live, Die, and BANG that's it???