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attic conversion not certified

  • 21-05-2022 09:25PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭


    bought a house a few years ago , had it valued seven weeks ago and decided to sell , the auctioneer claimed that many of the three bed semis he sold in the area had converted attics which were not certified so was quick to assuage my fears that the house might be limited to cash buyers , he claimed the house would still be mortgageable ?

    anyway , the people who agreed to buy the house employed a surveyor and he came back saying the conversion is a problem and papers will be needed ?

    i can get it certified , the very least though is that it would probably delay the sale by six months if not a year

    this would not be a disaster of any kind but obviously id prefer if a buyer could get mortgage approval despite the attic conversion not being certified , perhaps its just a case of angling for a discount and an over orthodox surveyor ?

    my own surveyor claims once the other surveyor saw the on suite , it was a stonewall blatant example of a storage area being used as a habitable space and thus fire regs were breached , my tenants are still in the house so did not move beds out of the attic , as the auctioneer assured me there would be no obstacle to a mortgage with an uncertified attic , I didnt make any moves to remove beds or anything

    Post edited by L1011 on


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,412 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Virtually no solicitor is going to tell their clients to buy a house with an uncertified attic conversion - so the mortgageability is not the sole problem here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    not what I asked , solicitors go weak kneed about anything which isnt pure vanilla and whiter than a bishops sheets so tend to advise against in these circumstances

    question is whether an uncertified attic conversion ( most attic conversions out there are uncertified ) renders a house unmortgageable ? , will a bank green light purchase ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 716 ✭✭✭houseyhouse


    I know somebody with a converted attic with en suite which is used as a bedroom. Just got a new mortgage on it. The surveyor did report to the bank that the attic area appeared to be used as a bedroom so she told bank she was using it as a walk in wardrobe and that was the end of it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 664 ✭✭✭starbaby2003


    Is the conversion certified by an engineer ? Outside of the habitable component you need to brace the attic if it has been renovated as a ‘store’ room.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    this particular EA who advised me that there would be no obstacle to a mortgage is someone who is very well informed , suspect what happened here is the agreed buyer employed an over zealous and orthodox surveyor , funny thing is , this a deal which involves a high degree of compromise , the surveyor they employed was certainly not an ally here

    my tenants are buying a house of party A

    party A are buying my house

    party A sold ( agreed to sell ) their house to my tenants a little cheaper if i didnt put my own house to the open market

    looks like this will torpedo the whole deal , pity

    I dont mind spending thirty grand if need be to regularise the situation as a property certified attic bedroom will add significant value and make the house an official four bed but il loose a year and my tenants wont get to buy the house locally they want



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    It will need to be certified as exempt from planning or compliant with a valid planning application.

    It will

    also need to be certified as compliant with any Building Regulations as required

    whether it’s official storage or not.

    Just pay an engineer for a cert now. Should only cost €5-700 give or take.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,117 ✭✭✭adocholiday


    I was a buyer in a similar situation. The original owner converted the attic but ours will never be compliant with regs because the ceiling height is too low. He just removed all the furniture and had his engineer certify that it was an exempt storage space. That was good enough for our solicitor and the bank, and the sale went through with no issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    suspect the couple who have agreed to buy my house will simply employ another surveyor who is less zealous and orthodox , I might ask my tenants to remove all traces of bedroom furniture from the attic , my tenants are buying the house of the couple who are buying my house , its a sort of triangular deal and i want it to work for everyone as i really like the tenants who live in my house but they cant afford my house or any house in this estate unfortunately



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    id pay 5 - 7 k if i thought i could keep everyone involved in this three way deal , the estate agent seems to have qualifications in engineering and is very sharp so il probably hear from him next week , tenant just had an informal chat with the other parties surveyor and he told her " it was a problem " and " papers would be required "

    if i needed to do significant changes in order to regularise , it would not be the end of the world for me , i bought the house cheap but you couldnt keep three parties involved in a plan for several months to a year



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    You won’t need to spend 7k unless it was converted using lollipop sticks!

    Im assuming guys been converted properly from a structural point of view?

    A cert to say it’s storage only will suffice for conveyance purposes.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    actually whoever converted made a good effort at it and it looks well finished but I imagine it would still take several grand to have it certified as a fourth bedroom , you wont do much for 5 k , certifying it as only for storage is of course different and if that allows us to proceed , that is fine as its been priced to sell as a three bed , one hopes the surveyor having seen the bed in the attic will not staunchly claim its been used in an illegitimate manner , my surveyor speculated that he might have made a conclusion based on the fact both radiators and an on suite are in the third floor


    my surveyor has never visited the house as i was content with things as they were this past few years



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Agh then this is a different situation altogether.

    If you need it certified as an additional bedroom you have significant structural and fire safety provisions to put in place.

    Particularly with the stair case, the floors and walls etc

    https://assets.gov.ie/220400/3efededb-832c-4757-945e-066e20df9e46.pdf



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    I know that , the auctioneer brokered the deal based on the house being a three bed however , perhaps the surveyor can still argue that the attic room being in practice used as a habitable space renders the house in breach of compliance and thus will not sign off , if this happens , I might as well go the whole nine yards and do whatever is required to make it officially a four bed and put it fresh to market in a year or so , it would command a higher premium if officially made a four bed anyway


    would have been nice had the surveyor taken a " hear no evil - see no evil "attitude but looks like they havent , even the bed was not in the attic room , the on suite made it perhaps too blatant ?



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Hard to tell based on just the text.

    Would like to see a pic. Does the en-suite have sufficient ventilation too?

    Do you have the required 2.4m head height over 50% of the room? Also, most planning development plans now don’t allow habitable space in the loft where that room is solely lit by a roof light. So a dormer may be required also.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 566 ✭✭✭Smouse156


    I just got my attic converted on my new build. It’s sufficient height 2.4m and size to get certified if I liked. However, 95% don’t bother as all doors in the house would need to be changed to fire doors. The attic door is a fire door. There would also need to be an escape window low down which would be dangerous for a child.

    Getting a mortgage is not an issue, as most people just claim it’s an extra living room. Technically it can’t be advertised as a bedroom until it’s certified. It would only be an issue for a landlord if they claimed the attic was a bedroom and telling tenants they could sleep there. The vast majority it’s their family home.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 672 ✭✭✭eusap


    The only issue is if its been sold as a Bedroom, as others have said if its being sold as a 3 bed with store room and not a 4 bed. The bank will value it off a 3 bed and not make any allowance for the store room. So its not an issue for banks (assuming no planning breeches)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    might just have been the surveyor having an informal chat with my tenant and giving her chapter and verse , I bought the house at auction a few years ago so no architect had signed off on the place but i might well have to get my engineer to inspect and sign off irrespective of attic room and what it is currently being used for ?

    the deal was certainly negotiated on the basis of the house being a three bed , a relative simple paperwork exercise might resolve this , hopefully wont delay things to long , as i said , three parties to keep involved here or else it all falls down



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 672 ✭✭✭eusap


    To not delay things best to call your engineer and ask his advise, he can call out and check the standard of the work and certify it as storage only. And also recommend what might need to be done to make it a bedroom etc...


    In the end the bank are worried about will we get our money back in the case of a default or will the county council want the development demolished. Have never heard of a council wanting a home owner to reverse an attic conversion except if they put windows to the front of the property



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Short answer is yes, the surveyor can claim non-compliance regardless of the advertisement. The surveyor is getting paid either way and their insurance is on the line if it comes back on them. So a nod/wink arrangement is not in their interests.

    At the end of the day, the surveyor is not really concerned with what has been advertised, just what exists in the property. After all, you could put up a building in your back garden with a kitchenette, a toilet and a bed and claim it's just a fancy shed, but in reality it may be another habitable space, which requires planning permission.

    I would say with near-certainty that the ensuite is what has tripped you up. A cheaper alternative to getting it fully certified may be to pull out the ensuite (bear with me). Remove the furniture, put it in the opposite corner, cap off the drains and the pipes, et voila! If the new owners wish to refit the bathroom, they can fire away.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,652 ✭✭✭tscul32


    Tried to buy a house recently with two rooms in the attic that were used as bedrooms (bungalow so not a third floor), but advertised, and emphasized by EA, as storage rooms as the ceiling height was not sufficient for bedrooms. Had engineer cert of compliance with building regs for the extension that the attic was part of.

    Would it not be a case that this would be enough. In the op's case, is there something written in regulations that you cannot plumb a toilet in the attic? Why would removing the en suite make a difference? Once it's being valued with the attic as a storage room why would it matter what you do with it after. Can the surveyor prove that someone will definitely try to use it as a bedroom?

    If I put a mattress in my kitchen and sleep there is that something that a surveyor would include as non compliant in a survey or would that be my own business.

    Just trying to see what the actual issue is here or is it just that there's no engineer sign off on the conversion of the attic to a usable room, i.e. floors, window, plaster...



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    I suppose its a bit like seeing a few different doctors , you might receive a different diagnosis from all three , some surveyors are more orthodox than others , some are chapter and verse while some are more pragmatic about the realities of what happens , at the end of the day the vast majority of attic conversions are not certified yet the dogs in the street know that families allows people sleep in said attic

    no local authority is serious about enforcing regulations here



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,707 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Its time you grew up. You bought a non-compliant property. when you are buying one, nobody cares about the regulations. When you are selling, everybody cares.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,667 ✭✭✭Wildly Boaring


    No surveyor, orthodox or not, is going to ignore uncertified rooms in an attic.


    These type of properties are sold with a cert for a storage area and with the number of bedrooms in the original build.


    You'd be some moron of a surveyor to do any different. Any fire would see you in the high court and uninsurable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    " bought a non compliant property "

    non compliant in what way ?

    bar the attic conversion , the house is compliant , the question is whether the attic conversion not being certified is an obstacle ?

    if it is , il simply regularise the situation and sell further down the line



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Would it not be a case that this would be enough. In the op's case, is there something written in regulations that you cannot plumb a toilet in the attic? Why would removing the en suite make a difference?

    Because it's not really about what it is currently being used for. I refer to the shed example. You could build a whole granny flat in the back garden, fitted kitchen, toilet, couches and bed, but claim that you're only using it for storage. And that may actually be true, but the fact that it has been adapted as a habitable space means it needs to be compliant.

    Stairs up to an attic space, nice floor, velux windows, that's a fancy storage space. Radiators.....ehh, OK you want to keep out the damp. Toilet....now you've got a habitable space.

    Yes, it is all a bit opinion-based, but at the end of the day an attic with an ensuite is no longer storage space. At the very least it is being used as an extra bathroom, which means that it now forms part of the living space of the house. And therefore must be compliant.

    You'll even get away with have a desk with computers set up and a few sockets. That's just how they're being stored. But there's no way around having a jacks up there, and presumably a shower too. You don't have these facilities in a storage space.

    While it sounds ridiculous that removing the toilet furniture would suddenly make it not a living space, you can see that it does. Now it's just a storage space with the potential to be converted to habitable space. Once sold, it becomes the buyers' decision.

     the question is whether the attic conversion not being certified is an obstacle

    That really comes down to the buyers' bank. The solicitor will advise against purchasing a house without the proper certs, but they can't block the sale. If someone really wants the house they will often purchase in spite of the solicitor's advice. Only the bank can block the sale by refusing the mortgage if they're not happy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,652 ✭✭✭tscul32


    So is it all subjective then. A surveyor can say that there aren't proper certs for the room because it's being used as a bedroom by current owners but not certified as a bedroom. But there's nothing to say that the new buyers will use it as a bedroom. Can a surveyor say that it's non compliant just cos they believe the new buyers will use it as a bedroom. Just seems very opinion based, I would have thought it should be more fact based. The buyers might have no intention of using the rooms for anything other than storage/occasional use.

    We didn't get the house in the end but was just curious. There is a shower room between the two rooms with a dormer window that wasn't in the planning. I don't see the dormer not getting retention, been there for 10+ years and no property behind for overlooking and a neighbouring property recently got retention for building an extension much bigger than planning so a dormer doesn't seem like too big a deal. We also wouldn't have necessarily needed a mortgage so could have dealt with retention ourselves afterwards if we wanted to. Just curious as to why a surveyor would claim non compliance if the build had engineering sign off. Surely it's up to the owner what furniture they put in a room. What if we wanted to use the rooms just for storage. Surveyor could claim non compliance just because the current owner put a bed in there. Non compliance with what, exactly?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    the bank only care about the valuation surely ?

    what is in the attic does not influence the valuation ,price was negotiated based on the house being a three bed



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,652 ✭✭✭tscul32


    That's the way I'd see it. Survey doesn't go anywhere near the bank anyway. Still don't get non compliant with what?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    my surveyor told me a few days ago that these inspections are often about how strictly the surveyor interprets what they see so it is rather subjective , this guy sounds quite zealous and orthodox , reality is I could pull out the bathroom , let the zealot look at it again , get the result i want , new owners move in and stick the toilet back in again

    bureaucratic pantomime



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,652 ✭✭✭tscul32


    "Bureaucratic pantomime" - I like that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,667 ✭✭✭Wildly Boaring


    You have a funny attitude to this surveyor.

    Zealot, orthodox, etc.


    He's asked to survey a building. It's got non-compliant rooms and no cert of compliance. He's put it in his report. It's up to the purchaser to direct his solicitor to ignore or that he will accept a cert of compliance as a store room.


    The surveyor isn't the one who has to take a risk or ignore the elephant in the room. That's for the purchaser to do.



  • Administrators Posts: 54,899 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    ..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Arguably it is a "bureaucratic pantomime", but more because people are taking the piss than anything else. Lots of houses being sold with "attic upgrades" that are clearly being used as living space but classed as storage space. Which is why surveyors have to draw a line somewhere. In reality any attic space with fixed access, floors, walls and a ceiling should be classed as habitable space and subject to the regs. Would make cases like the OP's much cleaner and clearer.

    There's not really any argument here anyway - the space is being used for living in. It's not storage space, so the OP is not being hard done by. The space should either be brought up to compliance, or downgraded to storage space.

    The regs aren't there for the craic. Some - like ceiling height - are not essential, but fire safety upgrades are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    I had converted a garage in my last house, when I sold it the surveyor raised it as a concern


    It cost I think 500 euro to get engineers report done and certified. Is that changed now or why would it delay for 6 months?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    they arent there for the craic but like a lot of things here , there is a severe lack of consistency , the authorities do not enforce the regs as the dogs in the street know that people throw beds into uncertified attic " storage rooms " and allow family and guests to sleep there



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,276 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    The OP seems to want it physically converted to habitable room status and certified as such.

    As you say, if it's just a question of calling it a storage area and getting an engineer to check if the roof won't cave in, then it's an easy and cheap win.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel



    If I am reading this correctly the room has an ensuite, how can you say its a storage area?

    The people buying the house are right to be concerned and they should make you provide all the information. Otherwise if they decide to sell in a few years they will be left trying to fix the problem. The regulations are not going to disappear, in fact they will probably tighten them up more.

    The surveyor is 100% right to call this out so not sure why you are complaining about them.

    Before even selling the house you should have made sure everything was ready to go, to me it seems like you hoped nobody would notice, you would sell and then it was someone elses problem.

    The banks are right to tighten up on this type of thing, people taking out huge mortgage and then issues like this arise and they haven't the money to fix. Then end up in arrears.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,276 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    You need to be clear about how you advertised this room when selling the house.

    If you called it a bedroom (and priced the house accordingly) then you must get it certified.

    If you called it a storage space, then it is utterly irrelevant to the purchaser what you were using it for. Literally none of their business and tell them that.

    I bought a house last year with a "storage room" in the attic. Velux windows, electricity and a bed in said storage room. My surveyor just said he had inspected on the basis that it's a storage room, I said grand, and I now also have a bed and my office in there.

    So unless you told them it was a bedroom, I don't see an issue. My guess is they're fishing for ways to bargain the price down.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,707 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    The bank care about the quality of their security. Therfe is valuation and marketability. Selling a house which is non compliant with planning permission and building regulations is less straightforward than selling a house which is compliant. The house cannot be sold without the attic. You can't cure a problem be description. You bought the house as a 4 bed without checking and now think some eejit will appear and buy it as a three bed without checking. Dream on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    who said i bought it as a four bed ?

    i did no such thing and my surveyor advised me before purchasing it a few years back that planning was for a three bed , planning is not required for an attic conversion provided you dont use it for anything other than storage



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    not exactly , I said Im willing if it comes to it to regularise it and effectively promote it to a bone fide four bed , if i can get away with spending very little in order to get the sale through as a three bed , that is my preferred option right now , my question was more about the technicalities here



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    the buyers can regularise the attic themselves down the line and add value to their house by upgrading their three bed to a four bed , if they decide not to buy now based on the surveyors findings ? , they will not get the house or at least need to pay forty grand more in six months or a year for a four bed



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    this sale was negotiated in private , it did not get advertised on the open market because my tenants are attempting to buy the house belonging to the couple trying to buy my house , my tenants do not have the budget for my house , they want to stay local , i am fond of them and im trying to play my part in a solution which can deliver for everyone , the people trying to buy my house took their house off the market and agreed to a lower price than they were getting on the open market in order to facilitate this three way deal

    my house was sold as a three bed with an uncertified attic space , the auctioneer who brokered this whole deal claims to have sold many houses in the locality with exactly the same details and this EA is not some gombeen spud muncher , he is a very well educated man



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 352 ✭✭backwards_man


    I sold a house about 8 years ago where there was no engineers cert for the attic conversion (which I didnt do, it was there when we bought it). Two buyers pulled out due to no report. The concern was around building regulations (the thickness of floor joists and whether or not a steel reenforcing beam should have been used?. from memory) . Got a builder in to look at it, he said it would not have done steel beam or thicker joists if he was doing his own house. A structural engiiner said in order for him to certify it, he would want steel beam and thicker joists. This attic conversion had been in use for 20+yrs with no issues, and was used by us as a spare bedroom although it didnt meet regulations for that. In the end we paid 7K to have it redone to spec and got it certified, but were able to claim part back with the grant that was in place around 2015 for home improvements. We sold the house for 35k more subsequently due to the market moving upwards in the interim, so it worked out well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,723 ✭✭✭Treppen


    I get the sense this is all being confounded by attempts to do a three-way sale/purchase.

    If your buyer really wanted to get their act together and purchase your house they'd be saying that it'll be used for storage. They could have this solved very quickly by engaging with another surveyor to get it across the line.

    I would just make it their problem or else put it back on market, no shortage of buyers out there.

    Trying to suit an arrangement with only one prospective buyer is heading for a headache.

    If it's the ensuite that's the issue then just board it off, or stick a wardrobe in front of the door.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,276 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    my house was sold as a three bed with an uncertified attic space

    Then I honestly don't see the issue. I would say 95% of houses that go on the market with a bed in the attic are the same.

    If the buyers want to convert it to habitable space, let them. There is no way for you to 'regularise' this without spending a lot of money.

    You need an engineer to come out, look at the structure and give an opinion that the house remains compliant with building regs in the context of the attic being storage space. A couple of hours work, 500 euro I would say.

    If the buyers still don't like it, then the deal is off.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Got a builder in to look at it, he said it would not have done steel beam or thicker joists if he was doing his own house. A structural engiiner said in order for him to certify it, he would want steel beam and thicker joists.

    The engineer's advice impacts his livelihood. If he tells you to fire ahead on the existing joists and five years later the house has significant structural damage because you decided a cast-iron bath would be a good idea up there, then he's in trouble. Even if you tell him that you only want to use it as a playroom, your word is no use to his insurance company.

    The builder knows that he's just going to stick a bed up there and a few bits and not overload the ceiling joists. If he sells the house and the next guy decides to stick 1000kg of gym equipment up there, there's no comeback on the builder.

    The purpose of the regulations really is safety; to ensure that changes made to a house don't put any of the occupants at risk through the entire lifetime of it. The guy who first builds it may know exactly what's been done and what the limits are, but the next guy to buy it, doesn't. If it meets regulations, then nobody needs to know how the work was done, just that it's up to spec.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    But if any issues then they are left with a huge cost to upgrade to allow them to resell the house.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    What huge cost?, they can return it to a storage area for little cost, if they upgrade to four bed by certifying attic, they add value to the house



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,242 ✭✭✭brokenangel


    A bathroom is up in the area. It will cause problems if trying to sell



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