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Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    We were all for going on holiday in Ireland this year because still dotn want to run the risk of if you get covid you cant fly. When we were looking at the prices we just gave up and decided to take our chances with a holiday abroad.

    I see too that our latest minister for housing mayhem wants to make the situation even worse again.

    What does he think is going to happen when he hits whats left of airbnb.

    You can say goodbye to the tourist industry for a start/

    Then ones those properties are sold they arent coming back. Neither to rental nor airbnb. Youll probably get reits and councils buying them up. Wont even make a dent in the property market. Is it really worth destroying the tourist industry the way they are now?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,749 ✭✭✭jj880


    At this point global issues are only serving to show us up as 1 of poorest value countries in the world to visit / live in. Yes its happening everywhere but that doesn't explain Ireland being 1 of the worst offenders. We're bollixed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,511 ✭✭✭wassie


    The IT reported earlier this month that

    The two newest hotels in the capital, the 421-bedroom Holiday Inn at Dublin Airport and the 393-bed Travelodge Plus in the city centre, were hired by Ipas for refugees early in the year, when it said the total number of hotels rooms in the State set aside for this purpose neared 5,500. Since then, more than 4,000 hotel rooms are said to have been hired on short-term contracts for Ukrainian refugees.

    ......

    Prior to the Ukrainian invasion, Ipas was doing deals to hire entire hotels at up to 100 per cent occupancy, often at nightly room rates of €100 and above. Such agreements seemed attractive to some hoteliers in the dead of winter because they eliminated any future risk to revenues of closure from virus resurgences.

    However, as tourism recovers and high season approaches, such deals now appear less attractive. In some locations traditionally reliant on tourism, local businesses are uneasy at the bulk of capacity going to refugees instead of tourists who will spend heavily in the local economy. Some hoteliers are also beginning to hint that Ipas may need to increase its rates this summer when many short-term contracts run out.

    The Irish Times recently reported from Rosslare in Wexford, where the manager of the Darby hotel said it would be “difficult” to extend its contract with Ipas this summer unless rates went up, because it was depressing its bar and restaurants sales and displacing tourists who would pay higher rates.

    The govt dept. IPAS (International Protection Accommodation Services) don't seem to publish figures, although they are probably available somewhere.

    Either way its the perfect storm of reduced supply, increased costs and labour shortages. Combine that with the rental car issue reported, doesnt bode well for the Tourism sector. Price gouging will amplify this. The supply issue is acknowledged as being temporary, but not in time for this summer after which the reputational damage will be done.

    Can't even begin to imagine what this is doing for folk needing emergency accomodation that have previously been housed in hotels.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,948 ✭✭✭6541


    170 Job going at PayPal Dundalk. I wonder is this the start of the bust cycle ?

    Is it just restructuring or something more serious.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,603 ✭✭✭Villa05


    Economy overheating as the world potentially enters (if not already in) a recession.

    The central banks have created some mess, Gov policy has of course put us at maximum risk



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    The car rental thing is the flavour of the week in the media. It's all I'm seeing everywhere now, people on twitter, tv shows etc.

    It'll be forgotten about next week. Then it'll be something else, the cost of a bouncy castle or a marquee or something.

    I see the Turkey Murphy (Eugene Murphy locally known as the turkey murphy) slept in his car. Maybe the government will be housing refugees in car rentals next. Maybe that's why they're so high! :O

    You have to laugh at the whole thing though. Murphy was tired on his drive home and didn't want to pay out of his own pocket the amount above his expense allowance so he pulled in and slept in his car.

    He was on Virgin last night saying he refuses to pay more than 200 for a room out of principle. How noble of him!



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,579 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    The home nations voted against Ireland for the RWC for vastly different reasons than tourism prices.......



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,664 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Why pay European language speakers higher than European average wages to do their language dependent jobs WFH from dearer rentals in Ireland than you can pay them less to do it in those countries?

    Most of the WFH-will-kill-FDI scares are just scares, but non English language customer care jobs in Ireland are dead.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,482 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    I think it goes beyond where customer care related jobs are located with PayPal, the company itself is facing some serious challenges and it has been cutting its short to medium term guidance for a number of months now. A broader restructuring of the entire company is possibly coming down the tracks so I wouldn't be surprised if more redundancies are offered in the next few months.



  • Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭Eclectic Econometrics


    You can rent a 2022 Range Rover Sport in Portugal for less than half the large estate price listed there.

    I won't go to Paris because of the cost of accommodation. What they call a suite (I am aware of the etymology irony here) is a room with a 2 seater chair chucked in, a real suite costs far more than I would spend in good conscience. For Ireland to be more expensive than Paris is wild.

    There is definite price gouging taking place within the economy, whether that is hotels, cars, food, gas etc. I don't know. But there is no way prices are going up 1 for 1 and coming down 1 for 1 to match the cost of raw materials and shipping.

    It will be interesting to see the 2022 figures - https://fortune.com/2022/03/31/us-companies-record-profits-2021-price-hikes-inflation/



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,511 ✭✭✭wassie


    Latest EU report on Ireland's economy.

    https://ec.europa.eu/info/system/files/2022-european-semester-country-report-ireland_en.pdf

    Whilst its appreciated these reports are quite broad ranging and can't cover any one topic in depth, my reading of it from a housing perspective at least is SNAFU if ever there was.

    A few takeways....

    p5: House and rental prices continue to accelerate due to persistent shortfalls in housing supply.

    At the same time, Commission models based on a long-term average of house prices have yet to identify signs of overvaluation.

    In the short term, the gap between housing supply and demand is expected to remain wide (see Annex 17).

    Worsening housing affordability, rising rents in 2021 and pandemic-induced delays in construction activity have exacerbated the problem. Rent increases and insufficient social and affordable housing are still a concern, and have created the conditions for a high number of homeless people by historical standards

    .

    p.12 The government has announced the ‘housing for all’ plan to help tackle the housing crisis resulting from persistent shortfalls in housing supply.

    While 20 500 new housing units were completed in 2021, this falls short of the government’s estimate (21) that an average of 33 000 new homes would be needed each year from 2021 to 2030 (see Graph 3.4). The new ‘housing for all’ plan aims to meet this need. Its financing will exceed EUR 20 billion over the next five years. Almost a third of the homes to be delivered under this plan would be new social homes. In addition, one in six homes to be delivered would be affordable purchase or cost rental homes (22).

    Some of these commitments are reflected in dedicated targets in the Irish RRP. However, the ‘housing for all’ plan is still at risk of not being implemented effectively, due in particular to labour workforce constraints (e.g. it is estimated that the workforce employed in housing construction needs to expand by over 50% by the middle of the decade) and the rising cost of materials (23).

    p15: The legacy of the financial crisis and features of Ireland’s insolvency framework may be factors contributing to elevated interest rates on loans to households and SMEs.

    The global financial crisis particularly impacted the Irish economy and resulted in a substantial fall in real estate prices. Furthermore, in cases of borrowers’ defaults, banks and other lenders recover on average a smaller share of their loans than in most other Member States, and it takes more time for this recovery to take place (28).

    These factors may lead banks and other lenders to assess their loans as more risky and hence to charge a higher interest rate on them.




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,206 ✭✭✭combat14


    and when price goes up demand typically goes down

    if this country gets a bad name for price gouging tourists will avoid the place like the plague for years to come!



  • Administrators Posts: 53,755 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Paypal in general I would imagine could be in bother longer term.

    For businesses etc, Stripe is a serious competitor when no serious competitor used to exist. For consumers, people are using the likes of Revolut and Wise to transfer money now, and PayPal is cumbersome in comparison.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,755 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    It's 300, not 170.

    In other news, Apple announced they're building a new building in Cork, which presumably is a precursor to further headcount expansion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Amadan Dubh


    Why pay sales staff in Ireland who speak their non-English language as their working language and also conduct sales activity in their home market (eg a French person moving to Dublin to conduct sales in the French market while speaking French)? It's not just customer service jobs that are going to go.

    The PayPal job cuts, will that be the shock I was talking about that might make people wake up and realise that the housing crisis is a bigger crisis than COVID? Probably not but I don't think this is the last we'll hear from PayPal in terms of its cutbacks in Ireland. The next ones to watch will be Facebook and Salesforce.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,603 ✭✭✭Villa05


    Fair play to them they nearly got this in the same sentence.

    They have yet to see signs of over valuation....

    (Next paragraph)

    Worsening housing affordability



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    I get the housing shortage but how can rent keep going up by crazy amounts each year.

    Every year X amount of students come out of college and enter the workforce and start renting. How are they affording it? It's madness.

    A graduate aged 23 starting on 30k with an average house price of say 300k. Let's say they meet someone on 30k too, so a combined salary of 60k in year one.

    If house prices rise say 5% a year, after 7 years that house costs 422k.

    If the couple get a payrise of 8% a year which I think is very very unrealistic, after 7 years that couple will earn 103k a year between them. The house above, after 7 years needs a combined salary of 108k

    How can this go on for another 10 years? It has to break.

    And that's taking into account that you're basically saying a couple on 53k each shouldn't aspire to own a new build.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23 Nero2900


    Its already broke, now we are just waiting for last silly buyers to realize.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,501 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    It’s simple until there are more properties available to rent than renters the price will keep going up as renters outbid each other to try and get a place. It’s the exact same with house prices.

    A recession won’t make much of a difference unless you have slower growth in the population due to lower immigration, higher emigration or an increase in supply.(or a combination of all of these).



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,603 ✭✭✭Villa05


    Our economy is similar to the US in that it needs to be cooled as the FED is doing. The trouble is that instead of cooling our economy, our gov are throwing petrol on the flames thus overheating.

    Our crash could be nasty when it arrives



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  • Administrators Posts: 53,755 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Most of the graduates that head into MNCs and big 4 accountancy firms will start on a lot more than 30k a year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Amadan Dubh


    Yeah, exactly. If you are earning 30k or less you almost may as well not work if you are renting. It's the minimum wage as far as I can tell.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭DataDude


    Pretty sure Big 4 still pay Accountancy grads under €30k. Been a good few years since I knew anyone starting but it was definitely only about €23k - €25k 3/4 years ago. They also basically run a cartel to ensure junior salaries stay low, so I'd be shocked if their audit grads are on much over €30k if even that.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,983 Mod ✭✭✭✭GoldFour4


    They might just be getting to 30k in big 4 now with inflation but certainly aren’t starting on a lot more than it. It’s fairly irrelevant anyway as they will be commanding 55k + in 3.5 years so worth the initial misery of a low starting salary.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    The NASDAQ (tech firms) is cratering at the moment. It's down 29%, much higher than the S&P index as a whole. Tech companies are hit harder by rising interest rates. Many have already said they're slowing hiring. We'll probably start to see many companies announce job cuts in the next year or so.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭DataDude


    True - then they get the opportunity to maybe buy a 1-bed apartment in Tallaght. Baller lifestyle! 😀



  • Administrators Posts: 53,755 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Which tech firms have said they are slowing hiring?



  • Administrators Posts: 53,755 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    I would suggest that Coinbase, Lyft and Wayfair are a bit of a stretch!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,603 ✭✭✭Villa05


    The Nasdaq rout started with those and is now firmly moving up the food chain.

    Pension funds did extraordinarily well over the last 3 years, it's now gone well into reverse



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