Fall of the Catholic Church

There seems like a disconnect between your paragraphs. You first say 'the majority of what parents want for their own children has no bearing..." and uses words like 'rights of parents.' Are those legally defined in the Consitution? And, if the State in fact ignores the (rights?demands?requirements) of parents that seems like a failure of the system. Which, as you've pointed out before, can only be addressed by amending the Constitution.

They are legally defined in the Constitution, and it absolutely IS a failure of the system, but upholding their rights doesn’t require a Constitutional amendment. The requirement to amend the Constitution only applies to the idea of withholding public funding from schools, that’s to say - an amendment is the only way it is possible. In reality it would never happen.

I'm not sure how you can assert getting religious education out of schools doesn't accommodate parental choice; if DES won't build more schools to accommodate it, something has to give, like removing the religious education from schools (which will free more time for students to study useful things and not fairy tales.) Anything that gets the influence of the criminal RCC out of schools is a positive gain for Irish society and should be supported.

Because it removes an option which is available to parents who want that model of education for their children. Religious education simply can not be removed from religious ethos schools. The only thing that can give, is the DES refusal to build more schools in an area where there are already adequate places in existing schools. Obviously that isn’t meeting the needs of children whose parents do not want denominational education for their children.

Multi-denominational schools aren't being asked for, are they?

They are, and they aren’t. It’s just very difficult to quantify. Some parents want multi-denominational, some parents don’t, and instead they want non-denominational, no influence of religion at all - a school and curriculum completely absent of any mention of any religion at all.

And those are just the parents of children in Catholic schools!

In ET schools where the ethos of the school is multi-denominational, it’s a bit of a mixed bag, literally. Originally ET schools were established as an alternative to Catholic Education for people who weren’t Catholic, but since their foundation, they’ve become an alternative for Catholics who didn’t want a Catholic Education for their children, and now ET schools are dominated by Catholics, reducing opportunities for non-Catholic parents and their children who also do not want a Catholic education for their children, but can’t get a place in either an ET school, or a Catholic school!

The question didn’t include any statement of any such thing. The question referred to the vast majority of parents who are happy with the status quo. That’s not speaking for anyone. You’re not obligated to answer the question, but trying to suggest that anyone is speaking on anyone else’s behalf is nothing more than a pithy attempt at point scoring and stalling any reasonable discussion.

I raised my family as I had been raised by mine Princess, as a Catholic, and now, my grandkids are being raised in the very same manner ( and travelling back in time, My Grandparents were in the same mold , and possibly even more strict, under the respective thumbs of De Valera and McQuaid) And as for the pedo's, chancers and criminal type wolves in clerical garb, none withstanding, we all turned out ok, TG. Now I see a world where there does not seem to be any controls, kids misbehaving , growing up without any boundary's,,, you know what I mean. Society sems to have lost its way. I've never said there were no other Faith's,,,I spent 24 and half years working and living abroad, predominantly Islamic Country's. Most of my Friends are Muslim ( of different sects ) and several time's a week I speak with them. Last night I spoke with a very good Afghan friend who a few years ago, gave me a grand tour of the Bamiyan , where the tourists do not get to see. But he had to leave with his family for Pakistan when the Taleban arrived. Thankfully, he has now returned, but to what? Everything he once had is now gone. He was a Lawyer in Islamic Jurisprudence, and held in high standing in the community. Now he represents everything that is a threat to the Taliban. But I digress,,,, So no, Princess, I'm not unaware of other Faiths and Cultures. But I have not changed my mind either about Christianity.

The question was “And the majority of parents who are satisfied with the status quo?”.

This question literally includes the statement “the majority of parents who are satisfied with the status quo”.

This statement is speaking for the majority of parents, attributing a particular position to them, based on zero evidence.

In England most of the population casually describe themselves as Christian. Most of those have only be to church for weddings and funerals. They are are Christians in a purely cultural sense

Ireland is on exactly the same trajectory. Most will never declare themselves atheist, they simply do not care to think about it and take that final step of renunciation.

That is the future for Ireland and eventually people will demand an end to the wasteful and damaging school indoctrination.

On the notion that we need religion to make us good people, if that were so we would find a disproportionately large number of atheist criminals -which is the opposite of what we see.

I've explained my background to you Princess, but I'll add a bit to it. And yes, it was as you say chosen for me, but that fits right in with what Jesus commanded his disciples to do, Go and teach all nations what I have taught you. and indeed that's what happened. And here I am. And TBH, I was just an ordinary guy, Mass of a Sunday was often missed, as were other Church milestones. But then my work took me all over the world, and what i saw and experience in my travels proved to me beyond a reasonable doubt ( as they say) that God does exist. And the only reason I'm having this conversation here now on Boards, is because I was protected by Him, and not just once, but for the whole 24 years. In that time Princess, I saw too many injured and killed. Men women, and Children, I have attended more Muslim Funerals abroad than I ever attended Christian funerals here at home. Now can you understand where My belief in God comes from???

So the Irish people, who already paid for these schools and hospitals to be built, have to now buy them again?

That's some scam, that.

You also claimed earlier that churches/orders provided health and education services to the State free or at reduced cost. You are going to have to provide evidence for this.

Yes a lot of teachers and nurses and even some doctors in decades past were members of religious orders. But the state paid them the same wage as any lay teacher, nurse or doctor. What that person then chose to do with their own wage - give all or most of it up to their order - was their problem.

People come out with nonsense that "without the church we would have had no healthcare or education" which isn't true since at least the late 19th century. There's a reason primary schools in Ireland are called NATIONAL schools.

How ironic - or should I say, grossly hypocritical - because I was responding to a post you made where you were commenting on the beliefs of others which you said yourself you do not hold. Shouldn't be any concern of yours, right?

Well, it would be no concern of mine if they didn't use our state funded schools and hospitals, state broadcaster, and attempt to influence the very laws of the land all in order to force their dogma onto people who are not members of that church.

You cannot prove a negative (ie god does not exist) and the producer of fantastic claims (ie supernatural claims such as yours) always have to prove those claims - never those who disagree. This is how discourse and logic have worked for thousands of years.

To make this understandable - I cannot prove that the Omnipresent Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist. We all just assume that it doesn't. The only material difference to the christian god is that most people assume he does exist. The only material difference is the base assumption.

The point is, Shoog, I'm not the one looking for proof.....I believe that God exists. And neither am I trying to either convince or convert anyone else. But then my beliefs are challenged,,,, prove it!!. Why do I have to prove anything to anyone???? I'm happy in my belief. You were in NI, and saw what it was like living in a war zone... and that experience shaped you, as well it would. Well I lived in war zones too, for more than 24 years, and some of the most brutal wars on the planet ( are there any other kind? ) and that for sure shaped my thinking , and what ever kind of religious attitude I had before that ( would be described as "moderate" ) were quickly changed to "Hardline" by my own personal experiences. An apt phrase comes to mind Shoog, but it may be the best way I can describe it. " When you walk through the valley of death, and come out the other side, its because God was holding your hand". I walked that Valley Shoog.

Princess asked why you chose your religion several times, your replies were all about where you grew up, before finally admitting your religion chose you, you come from a long line of believers.

You are well travelled and know many Muslims..

Princess said faith was a lazy way of thinking, blind acceptance over reasonable enquiry. You chose to believe that meant you yourself are a lazy coward for some reason and not putting up with this carry on.

As a trump card, you asked Princess to prove a negative. It's not the knockout blow you think it is though.

Am I all caught up? Good, carry on.

What kind of god would create a world with childhood cancer?

Where I live house, the word was spread eons ago 😎 and its still going strong..

You forgot the UFO's.....

Same one that sent one of his lackeys to kill all the firstborn Egyptian male children, amiright?

Yinno, the old vengeful one.