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The employment crisis in the hospitality sector.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭waterwelly


    We have the second highest minimum wage in the EU, so we do pay more, whether you like it or not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭waterwelly


    So if I went into a McDonald's in Paris the lads working the friers and flipping burgers are highly skilled and highly paid.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,125 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Can you point out in my post where I said that McDonalds staff are highly skilled?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭waterwelly


    McDonald's is a hospitality restaurant whether you like it or not.

    We also pay staff more than almost every country in the EU. That's a fact due to our high minimum wage, despite you constantly claiming otherwise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,125 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    We also have a higher cost of living than almost every country in the EU. That's a fact you keep overlooking. When comparing payrates you should be looking at purchasing power & cost of living in each country also, rather than just looking at minimum wages.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,009 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Why are you making up stupid and dumb arguments that no one is making to try and stand by your own points that are also stupid and dumb?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    They don’t have to at the moment, that will likely change as cost of living increases and PUP savings run out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 247 ✭✭hayse




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,125 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    We are at full employment, there are very little people just sitting on their hands and living off savings

    They have found work elsewhere and do not intend to go back. That inflation will cause these people to run cap in hand to hospitality jobs is delusional.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,009 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Why are you following me around the place trolling? Not your first rodeo is it?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭waterwelly


    I've never denied we have a higher cost of living, not disputing that at all.

    We also pay our staff more than most EU countries, that's fact, but you claim we don't pay staff more.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,125 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    We dont pay staff more relative to the cost of living than they do elsewhere thats the point. Looking at minimum wage in isolation is stupid and proves nothing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,689 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    The cheap influx of foreigner workers is not an option. Already in dublin people in skilled jobs are finding it hard to get accomation. What hope does somebody on €11 ph have of getting a room in dublin which are going about €800 pm.


    Every new build in dublin is aimed at the high end too. So we have created a situation where there is loads of low end jobs but no influx of people to come here to fill them.


    I actually think this is good. What will happen is the wages will go up dramatically. These €11 ph jobs will be €15ph soon. Obviously this will be passed on to the consumer and we can already see this. Less people will be able to afford to go out and bussiness will close and then there will be a new equilibrium where pay rates are higher and labour intense services are more expensive.


    It is no economic secret that open ended immigration supresses wages in lower secters. But thanks to accomation crises this cant happen now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,302 ✭✭✭Mr. teddywinkles


    So the taxpayer will have to house these new cheap workers because the wages will be too low to do so. And in turn subsidize the hospitality sector.

    Sounds like a plan.



  • Registered Users Posts: 76 ✭✭ericfartman


    Its absolutely horrible horrible work working in the hotel industry. I don't think people realize your expected not to take your holidays, your expected to do 20 hours overtime per week or even more if your on a 23K salary package per year, your expected to work weekends, you put up with bullshit off rich snobs, its not 9 to 5 and the hours can be anytime, your overworked, your overstressed, you have to pay for your own dry cleaning, they promise people on salary promotions to bar manger etc but it never materializes and people don't take their holidays in fear they'll miss out on the promotion. The industry is complete and utter bullshit and prey on the weak.

    They prey on the gulliable who acutally believe their bullshit about promotions.

    Anyone with half a brain would never do this a career choice. You'd be 10 times better off working in a supermarket or pub or factory or anything else that pays near minimun wage.

    Ask anyone who worked in the hotel industry, all the above is facts.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    It is an awful industry for sure, or at least it was when I was close to it. It really is no harm for it to have a staff shortage, pressure on employers to pay and treat staff better now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 76 ✭✭ericfartman




  • Registered Users Posts: 76 ✭✭ericfartman


    Exactly, even the room cleaners don't have a second to rest, they have to have a certain number of rooms done every hour.

    Mind numbing **** work and be absolutely slaughtered by management if they miss a sock.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23 eltoorock


    Another problem is workers renting. The private landlords are quitting due to the government messing up the market. The fund companies won't build apartment blocks outside of the cities so there's no spare accommodation anymore.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,009 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Not your first rodeo either it seems. Shame, id keep you around a bit longer.

    Anyway, let's get back to talking about how an 18-year-old is demanding a company car for collecting glasses in a pub..... ;)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So, why do it?

    No.. honestly.. all of what you stated above is well-known, and has been for a long time. And yet, people continue to do the training or educational qualifications to work in the sector, willing to put up with all that crap until their fragile hope of "success" is reached. So, why do it, when you could invest the same time and effort into an office job with a much higher potential on salaries and/or other benefits?



  • Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭tv3tg4


    I know one hotel where the staff turnover is crazy.

    Nothing worse of where staff being treated bad.



  • Registered Users Posts: 76 ✭✭ericfartman


    I don't, I have friends who worked in the industry for 10 years during there twenties and early 30's and have now left it. For some reason they think its "upper class" compared to working in a supermarket, a factory or fast food outlets. They would of been ten times better off in these industries. They were telling me promises and promises over the 10 year period of getting promoted but never happened for them and even the promotions the money was **** and would of probably having to do 70 hours instead the 60 they were currently doing to get up to the 28K a year working weekends and finishing at 4 in the morning instead of the 23K they were currently on. They eventually got burnt out.

    I felt sorry for my friends lapping up the bullshit of promotions in a **** industry hoping to eventually hit the 30K mark doing 70 hours a week. They were exteremly gullible and this is type of people working in hotels.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    The only large cafe I know is Dunnes stores Mary's Street, I think theres plenty of old style chippers left where you can get a good meal. I think there's a problem in that rents are very high, rental units are mediocre, why would someone travel here from Poland or Italy to work in a pub or a cafe in the old days there were bedsits where you could rent a room for low rent. In the last 4 years rents have gone up every year, if someone buys an apartment in dublin for 300k they ll need to

    Charge a high rent to pay the mortgage and also pay tax on the income. I read an article about an Irish man going to work in Germany he says its much cheaper to live there there's rent control and its a more relaxing place to live than dublin

    I think more people will leave Ireland as there's other places to go where you can live with a lower cost of living and a wider choice of rental options

    The pandemic has had many effects and caused people to think about the job they do where they live the government will have to do something like maybe give extra tax credits to people on low incomes or else do something to increase supply of rental units aimed at people on say 20k or less income

    I think they have a similar problem in America eg some city's are so expensive to live in due to house prices they have a shortage of workers like cleaners bar staff workers on low incomes can't pay 200 dollars rent per week many industry's in USA are short of workers



  • Registered Users Posts: 515 ✭✭✭TheTruth89


    Unskilled as it maybe the wages paid for the amount of work and the unsociable hours worked are way too low and people are now realizing this and simply wont do it for that money and they are 100% right the wages they are being paid simply dont reflect the effort and hours they put in. Id go on the dole before id work in hospitality... its modern slavery.

    I do find it laughable though that they have the neck to complain about the lack of people willing to be underpaid for hard work.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,975 ✭✭✭enricoh


    That's the problem nowadays, people choose to go on welfare over working! There is not a big enough gap between welfare and minimum wage. Like should the minimum wage be E15 per hour, e20?! Throw in employers prsi etc n the whole thing gets unsustainable fairly lively.



  • Registered Users Posts: 515 ✭✭✭TheTruth89


    Well where are you expecting the sacrifice to come from? why should someone choose to work in the hospitality industry to earn marginally more than what they would get on the dole...actually all things included the dole is a better deal, you get help with fuel, housing and healthcare and you can upskill while on it not to mention you have free time...


    Employers should be aiming to pay at least a living wage imo.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Regardless of the industry being discussed, when dossers are better off on welfare than working, there is no incentive to work. That means the State, ie you and me, end up having to pay more to support them. You might be happy with that arrangement, many are not.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's not sustainable though. Even without considering the taxation and pension angles.

    Anyone earning just above the minimum wage will see it rising to come closer to their own salary rate, and demand their own salary increases to compensate. After all, they deserve it based on experience, qualifications, or work type.. and in turn, those next above them will see the salary increases and demand their own salary be increased... and on and on. It'll quickly reach the point where Ireland is unappealing for businesses to employ people due to the costs, and they'll head off to cheaper pastures where it's possible to pay a reasonable salary and their employees are happy with it.

    Hospitality is simply the first industry that is going to face such problems. We're going to see similar problems for a wide range of industries, like customer service or call centres, which employ a lot of people but the salaries tend to be on the low end for most involved.

    The problem is the cost of living and the decline in purchasing power within the Irish economy. The rising costs ensure that their disposable income has far less flexibility. The government/political parties need to stop spending so much, cuts in taxation need to be applied, and businesses encouraged to lower prices to match, therefore putting more money in the pockets of the electorate, and in turn, back into the Irish economy...



  • Registered Users Posts: 515 ✭✭✭TheTruth89


    There will always be "dossers" for what ever reason but when you have a industry that is in competition with the dole all things weighed up that industry has a serious problem, its using "unskilled" labor as an excuse to pay muck wages, there are other industries where the work would be considered unskilled but hard and they are compensated properly for it.


    Hospitality deserves what its getting if we're being honest.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Perhaps you should consider the alternative viewpoint, our dole is close to one of the highest minimum wage levels in Europe.

    If you want to give unskilled labourers an opportunity to work, then you have to have minimum wage jobs. You can’t keep pushing up wages because our welfare benefits are just too generous.



  • Registered Users Posts: 247 ✭✭hayse




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,975 ✭✭✭enricoh


    There'll always be dossers but I reckon in the last 10 budgets any fella not working came out better than someone working minimum wage. Government policy has made not working more attractive by the year.

    A lad I know his young fella moved into his new house recently. He's 35ish never worked a day since school, 3 nippers, heads to the gym after dropping kids to school. His oul boy said no-one would ever work at 18 if you saw the gaff he just got.

    His other kid isn't 40 yet, done an apprenticeship at 17 n working away since. His back is giving a lot of hassle n he hadn't the e100 for doctor on call one night. He should of got his brothers medical card!

    Hard to know which one is the eejit!



  • Registered Users Posts: 515 ✭✭✭TheTruth89


    You also cant expect people to go out and work for a wage that they cant live on, the cost of living in this country is astronomical, imo its a foolish move to work in the hospitality industry for minimum wage in the current set up the smart move would be the dole and upskill to bypass the exploitation that is the hospitality industry, minimum wage should be minimum work, not completely unsociable hours and an absolute grind in terms of work.


    Some jobs are suited to minimum wages others are completely taken advantage of people you cant expect people to work themselves into the ground for **** wages and its as simple as that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 515 ✭✭✭TheTruth89


    Theres only one clear winner in those scenarios imo sad and all as it is.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If most of the people earning minimum wage are unskilled, how is this taking advantage?



  • Registered Users Posts: 247 ✭✭hayse


    Better off on the rock and roll than working on minimum wage.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Exactly, even though we have the second highest minimum wage in the EU, people are better off on the dole. It’s a crazy situation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 247 ✭✭hayse


    Staying on the dole is a free pass to a council house also.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,873 ✭✭✭hynesie08


    I think you'll find the majority of people in council houses work, but nice try.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 247 ✭✭hayse




  • Registered Users Posts: 515 ✭✭✭TheTruth89


    Go work in hospitality for minimum wage and you ll understand how its taking advantage just because its unskilled doesn't mean its not hard work.

    For example a  labourer would be considered unskilled but they get paid far more than minimum wage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 515 ✭✭✭TheTruth89




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,480 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Chipper near me I went to a few months ago- cash only- I was shocked, barely had enough cash. Presumably a tax avoidance swindle. The state of the place in general, posters and stuff stuck to the walls for years, decor from the early 90s I’d say. It’s amazing alright the cynical approach of some places. Though the food isn’t bad there and hygiene appears ok



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Worked in bars throughout my college years, all my kids had part time jobs in hospitality. I also spent two summers labouring on building sites in London, so I appreciate the difference between the two. I can assure you that there was a vast difference between the two experiences, one was hard work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,294 ✭✭✭downtheroad


    Cuts in taxation for who? There is no income tax on the first €17,000 earned per annum. Then 20% income tax is charged on income between €17,000 and €36,800. Somebody earning €36,800 a year pays €3,960 in income tax (I'm ignoring USC and PRSI here). That's a rate of 10.76%. How can this be cut any further?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,426 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Just on the whole thing about the dole being better than the hospitality work.

    In reality the people who are working in hospitality are unlikely to be the people who see the dole as a long term alternative.

    For a start they have actually decided to do some work.

    Also they are usually young and students.

    All of the benefits that comes with welfare are not available to young single people that may also be students.

    Even the basics dole payment is less for younger people.

    So the people in the hospitality industry are unlikely to be saying to themselves

    "I'm better off on the dole"

    They are more likely saying

    'this work will buy me x amount of pints and I can't wait to finish college and get a real job"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,873 ✭✭✭hynesie08




  • Registered Users Posts: 515 ✭✭✭TheTruth89




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Yes and some parts of the industry exploit this for all it's worth. Then moan when they can't get enough to sign up. Authors of their own misfortune. Take all the subsidies and supports from them and let the good ones stand on their own feet and the rest go to the wall.



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