"Green" policies are destroying this country

No I don't "think they're the same" (there's obviously significant differences between the two groups) and no "it doesn't explain anything about my posts on here"

Would you give over with the daft platitudes

Do try and read what was written and not let your inherent bias cloud your judgement when it comes to politics.

"Open Democracy is ideologically motivated"

Yes it is "ideologically motivated". It is a UK Labour / socialist interst / lobby group. Just as the other lot are "ideologically motivated as a Tory / Conservative interest / lobby group. And I don't give a monkies what either of them are pushing - as I inherently dislike these types of groups promoting their own interests via one or other side of a debate albeit in this case by different means

I posted the GWPF rebuttal to show that the 'investigation' and complaint came from the OpenDemocracy group themselves and who called in the media in the form of the Guardian and the FT. Only the guardian apparently ran with the story.

And both are funded by legacy Philanthropic US foundations which have shares in the fossil fuel industry. In OpenDemocracy's case, a check shows a significant source of funding is through the Ford Foundation, of the Ford Motor corporation, one of the largest such foundations in the US who maintains approx 0.3% of its endowment investments in fossil fuel companies out of a total endowment value of $16 billion. Another is the Rockefeller Brothers Fund. The Rockefellers are an industrial, political and banking family that made one of the world's largest fortunes in the oil business during the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

OpenDemocracy having a go at GWPF for receiving funding from an Philanthropic foundation which has shares in the fossil fuel industry whilst doing the same itself, really is the definition is the pot calling the kettle black.

Instead of just reading whats on their website, take a look at who's behind the organisation and where they're getting their funding.

Political Lobby groups by their very nature exist to promote their own political interests. Whether GWPF are "abusing their charitable status" has not been determined by the charities commission. Accusations of financial impropriety because of funding seems therefore somewhat premature

As to the "perversion of democracy". Democracy means we allow for such lobby groups, whether we like it or not. Shutting any such group down on the basis that either you don't like what they are saying or they are the wrong political flavour would be against the principles of democracy.

Btw I'm not interested in highjacking the thread into another dead end of being accused of "denialism" because you don't agree with me on this.

And one last thing, exactly what has of these UK politicial shenanigans got to do with a thread on " Green policies are destroying the country"?

That is the question which I already asked and which you have ignored in favour of digging an even deeper hole about some mad story about "right wing" "millionaires" when it turns out to be a story about two UK political lobby groups having a bun fight!

You are free to believe what you like. Follow the money. I encourage people to look at the financial statements of NGOs that are active in Ireland who promote climate propaganda such as An Taisce, Friends of the Earth, Trocaire, Stop Climate Chaos (all linked with the Climate Action Network) and see where they obtain funding, a lot of money to NGOs in this country comes from the Irish taxpayer (Irish Environmental Network gets its money from Eamon Ryans department). How about Roderic O'Gormans department and Youth Assembly on Climate. An Taisce draws money from an NGO called European Climate Foundation. An Taisce assembles material used by teachers in the classroom, that's one route they brainwash our children using climate fear. Government sponsored enterprise RTE have abandoned any objectivity in their reporting about Climate use the same language as the Guardian, in fact there is so much material from NGOs that lazy Irish media churnalists make a living from reassembling press releases, very often using RCP 8.5 computer generated fiction. Even wire services such as associated press are receiving money from billionaire foundations to report climate with in a defined bias.

Who pays the increasing environmental taxes as a result of the pursuit of these policies? Who has to cope with the inflation resulting from the EUs pursuit of magic money theory, now branded as the Green New Deal. The stated intention over the past two decades has been to restrict access to fossil fuels, using a ratcheting effect (Paris 2015), except it has come faster than they expected, the alternative technologies they promote are expensive and unreliable. The climate fear mongers are slowly getting found out.

Governments should be funding groups that promote environmentalism

It is not a 'conspiracy'. They apply for funding to perform a function that has a social benefit

This is absolutely nothing like the dark money pumped into shady private 'charities' that do nothing but lobby government and produce misinformation

The GWPF claim to be peer reviewed, who peer reviews them? they peer review themselves. They pump out absolutely disgraceful misinformation like this

When all of the actual data says the cost of onshore wind is falling steadily. This group are total Charlatans and liars and their propaganda is repeated in all of the denial blogs and spread through forums all around the internet.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/11/experts-forecast-giant-11mw-offshore-wind-turbines-by-2030/

It is ludicrous to suggest that the green agenda has been driving global politics.

There are always environmental concerns, but the urgency of climate change is driven by the overwhelming scientific evidence. This has forced politicians to pay lip service to environmental issues (sometimes) but the people actually getting their policies implemented by the governments of the world have clearly been the energy industry and the military industrial complex.

The energy industry gets trillions of dollars in state subsidies even to this day, usually funded from general taxation while renewables have been given a fraction of that amount, and it's usually in the form of special charges that make it really obvious that these are funding renewable energy (PSO levy for example)

This makes it look to ordinary people like the greens are milking them dry, when they're actually paying much more money in taxes directly to energy companies

In 2019 the government raised 3 billion in energy taxes, gave 400 million in subsidies to renewables, and 2.4 billion in subsidies to the fossil fuel industry including 300 million in direct subsidies.

The public think the government are taxing us because they want the money for themselves. Nope, they're handing that money straight back to the fossil fuel industry

And yet you think it's the greens who are pulling the strings.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/ffes/fossilfuelsubsidies2019/

We also have other issues, other environmental pollutants that we really need to tackle, the PFARS pollutants, microplastics in the oceans, loss of habitat and biodiversity etc. The science has been pretty clear on these too, but the so called green governments are dragging their feet on these just as slowly as they have been on climate change.

The only "ludicrous" thing there is you substituting what you want others to say rather what's actually being said

Nor did I "suggest that the green agenda has been driving global politics." Thats another discussion .

I have clearly stated that various political parties and groups have in many instances highjacked the debate for their own political purposes. The ideological left more so other political grouping imho.

And no I'm not going down your usual rerouting of the the discussion into your own personal belief that any criticism of anything "green" is the result of the machinations of the "fossil fuel industry"

As for current state subsidies

"The energy industry gets trillions of dollars in state subsidies even to this day, usually funded from general taxation while renewables have been given a fraction of that amount, and it's usually in the form of special charges that make it really obvious that these are funding renewable energy (PSO levy for example)"

First of all we don't use "dollars" in this country. And secondly much of those "subsidies" are paid to semi state bodies, industry and transport not to any particular "fossil fuel" company, but are used to keep the lights on (ESB etc) and the wheels turning (aviation, public transport, haulage). Many of those are legacy functions, in place for many decades, which if not already, will most likely change as reliable renewable energy generation comes on stream.

The state subsidies which remain in use at this moment in time, do so largely because fossil fuels remain essential in providing essential sources of energy due to the inherent unreliability of many renewable energy generation methods. Thats how it is in the here and now.

If you bother to look at your tables from 2019 (which are already significantly out of date btw) you'll see that much of the additional direct and indirect state subsidies for fuel go the likes of the, transport, industry and aviation amongst others, with fuel rebates to disabled drivers, welfare fuel allowances and other miscellaneous items thrown into the mix.

It is also important to note the Public service levy amounts to a significant level of taxation, in place for over two decades which represents a high level of personal tax for what is an essential service. For 2020-2021 alone the public service levy collected approx €393.13 million from electricity customers in Ireland. This public service levy has been in place since 2001.

"This makes it look to ordinary people like the greens are milking them dry, when they're actually paying much more money in taxes directly to energy companies"

Incorrect. A large portion of monies raised from the PSO go to support private investors and equity companies investing in the renewable sector, who also recieve elevated prices for generated electricity under the EU marginal price policy and guaranteed returns regardless of energy consumption. All of which is reflected in the hugely inflated prices of electricity charged to the consumer.

And let's not forget the significant taxes including carbon taxes and other charges which are added to all types of fossil fuel whether that is petrol, diesel, coal and oil or what ever which again does not go "directly to energy companies", rather comes out of the publics pockets and straight goes into general taxation.

As to environmental issues. Afaik no one in this thread afaik has claimed that environmental problems do not exist or should not be tackled. What has been highlighted is the bandwagoning of many of these issues by vested interests in order to push their own political agendas.

Galway against gas are 9 people and a dog.

Astroturfing: Organized activity that is intended to create a false impression of a widespread, spontaneously arising, grassroots movement in support of or in opposition to something (such as a political policy) but that is in reality initiated and controlled by a concealed group or organization (such as a corporation)

I'm replying to previous poster who believes the fossil fuel industry is being subsidised. I've pointed otherwise.

But you make a good point re tax on fossil fuels. Ireland has some of the highest taxes on fossil fuels in the EU.

"Will someone not think of the children"

True. Maybe we should think of them this winter where families can't afford to heat their homes or pay their inflated ESB bills due to the EU marginal price policy which sees humongous profits going to investment and equity companies involved in the renewables sector.

And no unfortunately some future expensive retrofit that households might or might not be able to afford at some point down the line is not going to help in the short term.

Who mentioned "people dying"?

So now its 'will someone not think of those who get cancer' ? What happened to the children you were worried about previously?

You don't live in Ireland if you believe Irish winters are "very mild" or else you have antifreeze circulating and it certainly ain't "misty rain" which is responsible for excess deaths during the Winter period.

There is already a recognised issue for many years with older people, cold winter weather and fuel poverty.

Looks like that could get a lot worse with our greens having their heads in the sand. And as you brough up people dying and winter.

"A national support group for the elderly has warned there could be 1,500 to 2,000 excess deaths this winter due to exposure to the cold and lack of preparaton for bad weather.

Age Action Ireland said today 16,300 Irish pensioner households, or 7.5 per cent, can't afford heating fuel. It launched a new booklet - Energy for Older People,which aims to help older people avoid hypothermia and use energy more efficiently this winter -  in Dublin today."

"In terms of retrofit, asked and answered previously."

Nope. I certainly didn't "ask" you anything about any retrofit. Why would I? The concensus of the discussion in this thread regarding the "planned retrofit" is that it's little better than a pipedream of the greens. It certainly seems to have little relevance to many.

The protest in Galway is not astroturfing unless you're suggesting some wind turbine manufacturer organised and paid for those expensive looking placards they're holding?

People are seriously deluded if they think Green technology can maintain the sort of consumer and travel driven lifestyle of the past three decades or so.

Greens should be honest: invest in fleeces, woolly hats and gloves for wearing around the house in winter. Back to the bicycle and shanks mare. Live, love and marry locally etc etc.

The CSO call them fossil fuel subsidies. I think I'll go with them over your opinion on the matter thanks