Gun Violence and how to address it

Leroy42 · 25-05-2022 9:20am

The mental health talking points are just that, designed to shift the discussion away from guns.

every country has people with mental health issues, but only the US has issues with guns to the level it has.

And, there the vast, vast majority of people with mental health issues do not carry out gun violence.

26 years ago Dumblane happened. Straight away tighter gun laws were introduced. Not one school shooting since. But it isn't just the passing of the law. The public at large accepted that things needed to change.

In the US, a very sizable and influenceal, portion of the public haven't reached that point and until they do nothing will change.

pixelburp · 25-05-2022 9:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119110618#Comment_119110618

The frustrating thing about the Mental Health angle is that even if it had value, there's no sense of any follow through even on that. I daresay MH services would love a bipartisan bill adding dollars to development, and a parallel culture shift in how mental health was seen in the US; there's a huge problem with masculinity in that country ... but it gets trotted out as smoke and mirrors, and nothing happens.

I don't know where America takes the first step. Dead preschoolers couldn't change minds, so what will it take? Maybe a massacre at a State capital of its senators but of course, they're well protected.

Sam Russell · 25-05-2022 10:37am

The USA has a lot of problems that need addressing, and gun control is just one of them, and the gun problem is an obvious symptom of many others.

Guns are just as available in Canada, but it is not a problem of the same scale for them.

USA has a massive and long standing race problem, and a similarly hurtful misogynist culture that permeates the whole society in a seriously detrimental way. Both these attitudes are deep seated. It is almost impossible to see a resolution within a few generations to this. The USA civil war was fought on racism/slavery and it ended over 150 years ago, and racial discrimination was only made illegal a hundred years after the end of the CW, but continues below the law through gerrymandering and other forms of active discrimination.

In 2021, Jan 6th, there was an attempted coup against the Capitol to prevent Biden being legally elected to the Presidency. Nearly 18 month later, the perpetrators have yet to answer for their crimes.

The very rich in USA have got even richer while the very poor have got even poorer. The taxation system favours the rich, and favours the very rich even more so. Why does someone with over one billion dollars want over two billion dollars? Surely with that amount of wealth, the holder runs out of things to buy.

The political system is utterly corrupt, allowing unlimited funds to be channelled to buy votes. The laws to control this were overturned by SCOTUS.

Talking of SCOTUS. it is currently packed 6 to 3 in favour of conservatives, which means Republicans. So with a Republican majority in the Senate and Congress, they can do as they like.

The future looks grim for the USA, and guns may be the only weapon available to the non-Republicans to take back their democracy.

I hope it does not get to that. However, they came out of the civil war, the depression, the prohibition era that gave rise to the mob, the scourge of illegal drugs, the death of JFK and RFK, Nixon, Bush, Trump (so far), and still carry on.

Mr.Nice Guy · 25-05-2022 6:26pm

I remember thinking after the Sandy Hook massacre that there would surely be changes, but it never happened. That was the moment where it became clear protecting the most vulnerable wasn't the top priority of those who run the country. I don't think any meaningful change will happen any time soon. They're probably decades away from even being ready to have the conversation, which is depressing.

25-05-2022 10:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119110714#Comment_119110714

Would be a bit ironic if the people in power who are consistently taking donations and endorsements from gun lobbyists and screaming that the Democrats are coming for your guns to their supporters, while consistently cutting mental health funding, actually had to deal with the repercussions, but that is not going to happen.

To much money involved and to many arseholes receiving it for change to occur. Similar to the arsehole display of complaining about the shortage of baby formula and then voting against a bill to ease the shortage

pixelburp · 26-05-2022 9:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119113595#Comment_119113595

The truly obscene part of this I had forgotten til the GOP and Fox started talking about this latest horror. It's now pivoted to the answer being to arm teachers and lock down schools like prisons. Watched one right winger speak to installing mantraps and trip wire in schools, Hannity glibly talk of hiring ex cops or soldiers to patrol the grounds. You say decades and I'm starting to wonder is that too soon. It's a Death Cult, the right wing view on life there; and coupled with the open deification of the Founders and that Constitution of theirs, I don't see how that changes. The 2nd Amendment shouldn't have a t interpretation beyond it speaking of the nation's army, yet here we are.

Leroy42 · 26-05-2022 10:48am

Some UK reporter asked Ted Cruz about it. Cruz started off all sad and contrite and worried about the bereaved families, but his attitude soon changed when he was questioned as to why it was only in the US that it happened. He of course started off by saying that it shouldn't be politicised, before of course saying that the Democrats are completely wrong.

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1529736392426803200?s=20&t=N3mpot78_On-dpHVQ28pmA

Second, I saw this retweet, of a FB post, which I thought made a very good comparison between how the GOP treat women and abortions and their view on guns.

https://twitter.com/MeldrewsGhost/status/1529724463532613632?s=20&t=N3mpot78_On-dpHVQ28pmA

Sam Russell · 28-05-2022 10:31am

Gerry Adams once said about the IRA 'spectaculars' that the UK Gov had to be lucky every time, whereas the IRA had to be lucky only once. Now I have no truck with his attitude to violence, but a similar situation appends to security in USA schools.

All it needs for a 'secure school' with armed guards, locked doors, teachers with guns, is for one measure to be ignored just once, and the gunman (or gun child) can wreak murder and mayhem - just one failure.

All it takes to prevent this situation is much tighter gun control, with advertising guns to be banned or redirected away from glamourizing gun ownership and normalising gun ownership. Having identity checks should not be difficult to effect, but it could make an eighteen year old think twice before buying two assault rifles to celebrate his ability to buy military equivalent rifles to kill innocent children.

It is nuts to think that more guns makes society safer. We have a lot of stabbings (many too many) in Ireland but I've yet to hear of a mass stabbing anywhere in the world that killed 19 young children and two teachers.

Ubbquittious · 28-05-2022 11:14am

If the lads who went on these shootings all got a good shag the night before it's unlikely they would have done it. I'm sure someone would provide them with a shag if they thought it would help prevent a shooting.

It would be better if these fellas could be identified and stopped before they went down incel/great replacement rabbit hole. The biggest problem IMHO is that nobody really gives a sh1t about these fellas until it's too late. They come from dysfunctional families, the teachers don't look out for them, they generally don't encounter anyone in their daily lives who might sit up and say "this lad is going down the wrong path". For every lad who embarks on a shooting spree there are likely several more who just top themselves and we never hear about. Taking away their ability to get guns is over simplistic and doesn't do anything about the root cause.

pixelburp · 28-05-2022 11:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119125475#Comment_119125475

Taking away the guns, going by your reduction, would give these fellas more time to get the help they needed from Mental Health services. Plenty of dysfunctional families across the world, but giving teenagers who are spiralling out of control - in a country that deifies individualism and hostile bravado - access to guns is petrol on the fire.

The situation is clearly at crisis point and changing a culture towards empathetic care for forgotten or struggling young men takes time. Taking the flood of guns away from the streets will have a tangible, positive effect. When more children have died this year from guns than police officers, the problem is clear. While buy-back schemes have shown themselves as effective too; only recently Sacramento had to shutter a buy-back scheme early due to unforeseen demand. When asked why they were handing back their guns, many cited lack of knowledge on how to use them safely.

Ubbquittious · 28-05-2022 11:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119125576#Comment_119125576

Time is no good if they don't do anything with it. There is little/no support for these fellas. Everything is a rat race, everything costs tons of money. No community, society is almost completely atomised there. The problem is far deeper than a fecking buyback scheme, nor are they likely to be the type who will one day just decide to hand themselves into some mental health facility out of their own volition

Sam Russell · 28-05-2022 12:56pm

Illegal drugs and legal guns is a toxic mixture that can only lead to more shootings.

Add in the prevalence of mental health issues and angry men with a chip on their shoulder and this is what happens.

pixelburp · 28-05-2022 1:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119125587#Comment_119125587

The problem is guns, this is beyond argument at this stage TBH, and buy-back schemes help get guns out of peoples' hands today. Immediately. Not all gun violence is caused by sex starved teenagers and it's reductive to try and deflect to mental health as a whatabout.

pixelburp · 28-05-2022 7:14pm

To no surprise, Trump weighed in, advocating for escalation through arming the teachers. The "good guy with a gun" myth still persists. While also parroting the idea to turn American schools into glorified prisons / fire hazards...

Trump called for the overhauling of school security and the nation’s approach to mental health, telling the group every school building should have a single point of entry, strong exterior fencing, metal detectors and hardened classroom doors, and every school should have a police officer or armed guard on duty at all times.

A single point of entry? That sounds safe. Fencing? It's dystopian stuff, and I can't see how even hardcore GOP voters think this is a good idea.

And also worth pointing out how many schools are struggling with funding basic necessities - especially schools in minority communities.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/28/school-shooting-strengthens-case-for-guns-donald-trump-tells-nra

Leroy42 · 28-05-2022 7:58pm

He, and others like the NRA, aren't advocating anything. It is simply a way to change the narrative away from the central issue, that of guns.

They aren't even allowing proper research be carried out. They have no interest in finding a solution, only to avoid talking about the real issue.

They know single doors, security guards etc is a non starter. Who pass for every school to be adapted. You pays for the security guard?

And arming teachers? So parents don't trust teachers to actually talk about sex or abortion etc, but they are going to trust them with a gun?

And of course it can't just be a simple handgun. Every teacher will need an AR-15 type weapon, because to accept that a hand gun is enough would be to accept that AR-15 type weapons are not needed by anyone which is a total non starter.

kowloon · 28-05-2022 8:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119125784#Comment_119125784

Are many of them on illegal drugs? Cannabis doesn't really count as I'm pretty sure that has never driven anyone to anything other than a drive-through.

Sam Russell · 28-05-2022 9:32pm

Illegal drugs take money out of the community which has an effect that is not conducive to anything good.

Leroy42 · 28-05-2022 10:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119127929#Comment_119127929

Countries all across the world has issues with illegal drugs, but not the issues with gun violence or more specifically the type of mass shootings so regularly.

kowloon · 29-05-2022 1:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119127929#Comment_119127929

I'm not sure I follow, are you saying the drugs are themselves aren't the problem but poverty?

Sam Russell · 29-05-2022 9:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119128818#Comment_119128818

Well, the effect of the illegal drug culture on a community is to make illegal activity normal, which combined with the resultant need to fund the high cost of addiction by (normally) criminal activity, causes those caught up in it to move towards theft and violence. With the ready access to guns in the USA, that violence often involves shooting people.

It becomes easy for those nut jobs that have mental problems to see a solution to their problems to not just to commit suicide but to take their perceived persecutors with them. School shootings are not as common as workplace shootings, or just shopping area shootings. All such shootings are appalling, but especially the shooting of innocent children.

These mass shootings in the USA only appear to occur in areas of poverty or deprivation.

Leroy42 · 29-05-2022 10:19am

With the ready access to guns in the USA, that violence often involves shooting people.

That is the key line of your post. Every country has similar drug, addiction, crime and poverty problems. People feeling left out etc.

The difference, that Americans simply won't accept, is the easy access to guns. Not just any guns, military grade designed for multiple kills.

All the other things matter, and have an impact. But, the availability of those weapons creates the unique situation in the US.

pixelburp · 29-05-2022 10:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119127342#Comment_119127342

All true, but the sickening thing is that the narrativd works all the same. Maybe not people buying fully into the idea - though Hannity and the like are making that noise all the same - but certainly the prevailing myth that only MORE guns will solve this and that the "good guy with the gun" being the answer. That's why we're still here after all.

Sandy Hook SHOULD have been the watershed. If a country can't pull itself from the abyss surrounded by dead toddlers, what hope is there really. In many respects, this whole thread is screaming into the void. Not that we have any social sway but I do find myself a bit baffled where they go next, or what to suggest. 50% of the legislative body across the country won't even allow the banning of those rifle stocks (or whatever they were called), and the Constitution has become holy writ.

Leroy42 · 29-05-2022 11:03am

Yeah, Sandy Hook should have been the moment.

TBH I kind of gave up after that. I used to care, pay attention to the news about shootings, but I don't much anymore.

Its still heartbreaking to hear about the deaths, the pain of the families, the terror of those caught up in such an incident.

But America doesn't want to change. It is simply not a price they are willing to pay to protect children.

And even without an incident, the mere fact that kids even have to worry about getting shot in school in a non war zone is mental.

But there won't be a moment. They are going to have to play the long game. State by state, getting gun control advocates elected in sufficient numbers across enough places that it simply becomes the norm.

Constant cases in SCOTUS. Push the boundaries and dare others to push back. And they will, be prepared, but keep eye on long term goal.

kowloon · 29-05-2022 8:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119129214#Comment_119129214

I get you. There's definitely a hopelessness element to it. The killers seem to crave infamy, not just suicide.

Quin_Dub · 30-05-2022 11:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119129341#Comment_119129341

Of course Guns are the problem and their entire society has been in an arms race for decades.

Gun advocates claim that guns are needed for "protection" or that armed guards are needed in schools for the same reasons etc.

What they deliberately ignore is that "guns beget guns" as it were.

There are criminals or people with mental health problems all over the world but nowhere else has the same levels of gun violence.

Let's look at "Guns for Protection" first. - If I'm a criminal sort in Ireland (you could pick pretty much any other country really) and I decide that I'm going to rob the local corner shop or break into a house , I will bring just enough equipment to get the job done.

Because I know that the most I might be faced with from a Homeowner or a Shop-keeper is maybe a baseball bat or a hurley , All I need is the same or maybe a knife and I can get the job done. I don't bring a gun because firstly I have no ready access to one and secondly , it's not worth all the extra charges it would bring if I get caught , it's an unnecessary risk.

In the US , the same criminal knows that they need to bring a gun as there is a high chance there there will be guns in that house/shop. They also know that they need to use extreme force to make sure they suppress that gun. They also know that now they've brought the gun they might as well use it to ensure they get away as they are getting 25 to life either way.

The "School shooter" type - Sadly these types of people here and in other countries usually end in a murder/suicide scenario . They kill their parents/partner and then themselves. However what they don't do is go on a rampage to a school/office or whatever because they simply do not have the means to do so to any great extent.

In the US, they have ready access to the means with which to carry out a rampage which do not exist anywhere else in the world.

Bottom line , removing guns just lowers the threat level across the board and every crime goes down a notch or two on the severity scale as a result.

The reality is that it might take decades for the impact of wide scale gun legislation to really impact the levels of violence , but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done anyway.

AbusesToilets · 01-06-2022 12:54pm

If the will existed for legislation, I think a more effective approach would be a ban on future semi-automatic platforms, coupled with a ban on calibers below 6mm. That's a rough threshold for a viable hunting round.

The goal being a gradual reduction and sunsetting of pistols and semi automatic rifles in society. No one is criminalized over night, no one's guns are being grabbed. Coupled with other efforts, such as voluntary buy backs, education, red flag laws and most importantly, investment in mental health care and communities.

Quin_Dub · 01-06-2022 2:57pm

To be honest , the path to legislation is around registration and licensing rather than trying to ban certain weapons type.

Increase the minimum age to 21.
All Sales require registration and a license.
License requires a full background check.
Ban "Gun Show" & Private sales.
Licenses need to be renewed every 3 to 5 years.

Give everyone 6 months to get into compliance - Register the weapon and get your license , if not either surrender the weapon or get prosecuted.

Manic Moran · 01-06-2022 4:07pm

I think recent events put an interesting spotlight on the "guns vs the shooter" argument.

Compare the narratives between the Buffalo shooting, and the Uvalde shooting. The majority narrative in the former was on the who and the why. It was a white supremacist, in a racially motivated incident in a state with an assault weapons ban. He modified the weapon after purchase into an illegal configuration (Much as the San Bernadino shooters did in California. The stupidity of the laws in question, I have commented upon in the past).

https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/17/politics/biden-buffalo-visit-shooting/index.html

The firearms discussion was almost an afterthought. In fact, until a couple minutes ago when i specifically searched, I had no idea that he had modified his weapon to an illegal configuration. Images of the firearm used were shown in the media not because it was an illegal Bushmaster XM-15, but because of the various commentaries which had been written upon the firearm by the shooter.

Such a simple discussion is not available for Uvalde. We are absent any particular clues as to 'why', so the discussion instead has turned to the 'how' as the only thing which can be superficially discussed. It's easy to say how to stop Buffalo shootings: Stamp out white supremacy. Uvalde... umm... let's just talk about the guns. The problem is that America's societal shortcomings, which I don't think anyone doubts need fixing, are so complicated that it's easier to just ignore them and focus on a symptom instead of the cause.

Quin_Dub · 01-06-2022 4:36pm

Manic - You are right to an extent I think

In the case of Buffalo and similar events there was a clear "reason" the person did what they did , so the focus moves to how to mitigate those reasons.

I also think that a person who has an "agenda" is also more likely to source a gun through any means whereas rightly or wrongly, the perception is that schools shooters in particular are almost impulsive actions and that removing the access to guns would have a greater mitigation impact than in other types of event.

Fundamentally all options need to be acted on to make improvements - Access to mental health services , counsellors , School security and yes changes to Gun laws.

But as you call out there is a key challenge unique to the United States where that focus on exceptionalism and hyper individuality when combined with the aforementioned lack of supports leads to young men in the 18-25 range being at a significantly increased risk of violent breakdowns.

However , given that that exceptionalism and individualism is a central plank of the American psyche it's hard to see a pathway there.

Leroy42 · 01-06-2022 4:45pm

Manic, it really is easy to stamp them out. Make guns illegal. The problem is that there isn't the desire to do that.

When I say simple, the law itself can be simple, a copy and paste from similar laws in many other countries. But of course the path to that is extremely difficult and only when people accept that the price of their ability for almost open access to guns is not worth the potential death of kids in school and people in shops, nothing will change.

ThE fallacy of 'one good guy with a gun' has been shown as the falsehood it is. There were cops at the school, but they are not going to go running in when faced with such lethal weapons.

USA needs to answer the question as to why it is the only country with this problem. It isn't doors, or mental health, or video games, music. Because all countries have them. America don't even want to ask that question, never mind find the answer.

But a simply law change won't be enough. The culture has to change. Those people that walk around with guns, showing off, need to be seen as the potential dangers that they are. Not seen as some form as high expression. These guys dressed up in army clothes, handgun, assault weapon. In any normal society those people would be locked up. Some in America seem them as heros.

As I saw it stated somewhere recently, the words of some dudes that have been dead for over 200 yers are deemed more important than the lives of the actual living.

Gun Violence and how to address it

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