Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

Options
1176177179181182315

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,460 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Hardly a surprise that they'd vote to leave Ukraine today - 2 million plus went west into Ukraine ,1 million went east into Russia , so there's a rump population left ... Do the imported Russian militias count ?

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭Field east


    no , you should not be confused . You are looking at the whole issue at the ‘ wrong angle ‘ Over the past 3 to 4 months Putin has stated a multitude of reasons why Ukr. Need to be ‘ brought to heel’ and any one of them is sufficient reason to justify the invasion - sorry - the special operation. So Vladimir is allowing you to cherry pick to reason that suits

    / best fits your ‘agenda’



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,460 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    We've seen the surrender of some of the azov battalion... After 3 months of siege ..

    I've seen as many far right tatoos on surrendered Russians ..( including the Russian lad lad with a massive Nazi eagle gripping a swastika on his back , who seemed surprised 🙀 that he had a tattoo at all .. )

    I'm sure I remember the yanks saying don't do it , don't do it , don't do it..for most of December , January and February ,

    They weren't sending in heavy weapons - they weren't sending in planes , so as not to offer any provocation..

    But honestly the Americans have won this conflict hands down - no matter the short term result ... And for relatively small money ( for them )- Russia has wrecked their military - they're in the process of wrecking their own economy , they've wrecked their status quo with the Chinese , russia have also wrecked the Donbass and whatever goodwill they had from the locals ,

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭Field east


    forgot the list of reasons for you , sassier, to cherrypick from. So here it is

    ;-— need to be denazified as they are killers of the WORST degree and we cannot have that happening now , can we?

    • need to be demilitarised so that we can start off from scratch and get the country going in the right direction again and everybody treated equally no matter what language they speak.
    • its a failed state so it needs to be rescued
    • we are all the one family/tribe so there is no need for this separation and we need to be much closer than we are now
    • the biggest mistake ever made in the general area- Russia and surrounding areas - was implemention the breakup of The USSR in 1990 and that needs to be rectified hence the special operations
    • in order to do what you Ukr would like us Ru to do we need to go to Kiev to ‘chat’ about putting the appropriate leadership in place in order to achieve the above. We would like you UKranians to show your appreciation by welcoming us with flowers - all types except sunflowers. Their use will draw a little penalty.
    • I could list more if I had better Russian . They speak too fast sometimes on Russian TV for me to understand what they are saying!




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,276 ✭✭✭IRISHSPORTSGUY


    Seems to be a deliberate anti-French/anti-German propaganda campaign going on by the likes of the Atlantic Council, CEPA and Washington thinktanks (Anders Ostlund, Anders Aslund, Paul Massaro etc), backed up by many bots. This nonsense idea is being mooted too



    My theory is the US hate the idea of closer EU integration. A Europe with more autonomy is the last thing they want - a more independent EU undermines NATO.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭Field east


    Of course you must have reams of indicators to back that theory up. You might share the most obvious ones sometime



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,276 ✭✭✭IRISHSPORTSGUY




    Sure.



    All atlanticist thinktank stooges.


    Conveniently ignoring the aid that the French and Germans have given Ukraine, either bilaterally or through the EU. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,681 ✭✭✭eire4


    There is about as much chance of that happening as there is of Ireland leaving the EU this year in other words none what so ever.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,272 ✭✭✭fash


    Biden, Obama etc are strongly pro EU. The Trump wing of the republicans are anti EU.

    Scholz & Macron have been saying & doing various stupid things - that has allowed those who wish to harm the EU (e.g. Brexiters) the opportunity to stick crowbars into the relationship between EU member states



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,272 ✭✭✭fash


    What I find particularly funny/naive & gullible about the Russian shills (assuming they aren't deliberately trolling) is that they straight up trust the word of a country which has over decades if not centuries literally perfected the art of lying - to their population, to their superiors & to their enemies. How is it that the Russians literally lie & have lied about everything all the time - (Lavrov was still denying they attacked Ukraine in mid March) except for everything they say about this latest (following a very long line) invasion?



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 18,534 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    A lot of the Putin shills don't seem very bright. A recurring theme among a lot of the far right and the extreme left is that they are mostly thick and see things in very black and white terms and without nuance (watch how they interact when challenged on social media....they can't really debate properly and resort to slogans and soundbites).



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭Field east


    I found that army guy reporting on how the Russians are treating the 2750 odd ‘Nazi ‘ prisoners very amusing - 3 very good quality meals a day, injured being well looked after in good quality hospitals, etc, etc, etc.

    so , when we reflect back on Putin , et al, saying that these prisoners are scum, rats, no regard for life, traitors, nazis of the worst kind , etc, etc, etc I am failing to see why they are not getting the same treatment or equivalent that has been dished out to those Russians that Putin uses to eliminate his ‘opposition ‘living overseas - in the UK



  • Registered Users Posts: 925 ✭✭✭ilkhanid


    Of course prisoners-and civilians-who didn't pass ''filtration'' are being treated very differently.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,550 ✭✭✭amandstu


    I wish the very best on those POWs whatever the attendant circumstances

    Their resistance was heroic and vital for the survival of their country


    I am very fearful that their present situation is probably truly horrific (along with that of all others affected by this Russian regime)



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Any one rowing back on their statements from the early weeks of the war that Russians military was weak, getting hammered?

    Ukraine are still asking for more and more weapons despite the tens of billions already given to them. Russian army can't have been as weak as said.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    As for the previous page with the seemingly anti Germany/France eastern europeans....could you blame them if they were?

    Germany wouldn't give up Russian gas because of the damage it would do to their economy so then the EU wants to ban Russian oil despite it having the same effect on some eastern european countries.

    And then you have Macron calling the Polish PM a a far right anti semite.




  • Registered Users Posts: 213 ✭✭bobowen


    Sourced and documented certainly sounds impressive and immediately makes you think they're as pure as a christian forensic accountant but when you actually look into their "evidence" and click the links you're confronted with grainy photos of tanks with no markings that they claim are Russian but are more likely to be Ukrainian.

    Take the first section in the listing of the alleged Russian losses on the Oryx website, the T64 tank. There are twenty links of mostly grainy photos in which the ones with Z markings could easily have been photoshopped. The tanks with close up images have no Z markings and could easily be Ukrainian since they have over 1,200 of them. There is no metadata whatsoever accompanying the links. No geotag or source info whatsoever. I'm happy to be disproven here and would be grateful for anyone being able to point me to the metadata of the links on the website but it seems to me that we simply have to believe that they have "sourced and documented" but we can't cross check this as they provide no details of said documentation.

    The Russians no longer use these T64 tanks but the DPR/LPR have 112 according to wikipedia. As mentioned above the Ukraine forces have well over 1,200 of the tanks. What do you think the probability is of these destroyed tanks actually being Ukrainian and not Russian considering these numbers and the distinct lack of metadata?

    We are currently living a through a time in this world where the supposedly reputable Guardian newspaper can include an interview and a video clip of one of the Mariupol civilian evacuees talking about what life under the steel plant was like but edited out the most important part of her testimony where she said the Asov battalion kept them prisoner in order to use them as human shields and would not allow any civilians to avail of the humanitarian corridors.

    If the Guardian is twisting the truth to this extent imagine what a National Endowment for Democracy affiliated source like Oryx is doing in order to create false narratives. 



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,503 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    I will take your opportunity to review what I said from before the war started and see if my opinions have changed:

    My primary view - i.e. that threatening invasion was the high point for Putin and that any actual invasion, no matter how it went, would put him in a worse position is still my view, but with a few additional factors. I did not anticipate the level of unanimity amongst NATO members nor the level to which the UN would condemn Russia. The international response has been far greater than I had expected. It has also filtered through to broad sections of society who had previously shown little interest in Ukranian affairs. I definitely did not even countenance the possibility of Sweden and Finland joining NATO.

    In relation to Donbas, although I didn't specifically address the tactical situation in point 1 above, I thought it would have been so obvious that Russia would take over Donbas in a week or so that I didn't even consider it worthy of mentioning. I got that one completely wrong of course - three months in and the only significant settlement in Donbas that has fallen to the Russians is Mariupol, which they substantially destroyed in the process. I seriously underestimated the Ukrainian army's ability to hold the line here.

    In terms of the attack on Kyiv I stand by my views at 2. above that they could try to take the capital but they would find it very difficult. I didn't realise quite how badly they would fare logistically in this front, but the 40km line of tanks was a real sign of weakness. It's also laughable that Russia is now trying to pretend that this was a feint or a way to hold up the Ukrainian forces. If that was genuinely their plan, they would have achieved it more effectively and without so many casualties by either remaining poised at the Belarus/Ukraine border (thus typing up Ukranian troops in anticipation of a further front opening up) or by means of limited incursions into easily defensible positions. These are the traditional methods of carrying out a blocking operation. Sending large amounts of troops to try to capture built up areas and threatening to assassinate the president is such an incompetent way of doing it that it is not capable of belief. Russia have shown themselves to be incompetent, but not that incompetent. It is clear that they are lying to save face regarding the Kyiv front.

    On point 3., again while I didn't state it I thought it was fairly clear that the Russians should be able to take up to the Dniper without too much difficulty militarily, and the problem they would have is holding that territory. If and when they manage to achieve this in 2 or 3 years time at this rate, I will reassess my view as to whether they have the capacity to hold the area in the face of strong Ukrainian insurgency.

    On 4., I have somewhat modified my views. I suspected that only part of the Russian army had meanginfully modernised, whereas it seems that almost all of the Russian army is still stuck in the past, albeit much smaller and better paid. They still have command and control issues, an utter lack of modern communications, I don't think it's accurate to say that they have logistical problems because that would imply that they have any logistics at all, and their morale is still that of a conscript army, even if they are technically contract soldiers.

    In terms of the tanks and Javelins, I perhaps underestimated the Ukrainians on this front and they have been massively successful. Ordinarily Russia would now be using the firm soil of the summer to conduct flanking maneuvers, but they have lost an awful lot of tanks and IFV/APCs. Those vehicles they have left are not worth risking against a Ukranian Territorial force which has shown itself to be more than capable of small unit anti-tank tactics. The Ukrainian comms and command is superb due to what has been described as an Uber for anti tank units, and I would imagine that they will be offering this technology to other countries before long.

    On the airforce, I expected them to be a bit better. I had assumed they would carry out a successful SEAD operation, but they were only partially successful. To be fair to them, they are relying on the old Soviet doctrine that the air force is intended for support of the army and for defence against aerial attacks. They were not intended to achieve air superiority over a large enemy territory. And as for the Navy, well they have always been neglected and, whether the Moskva sank due to a neptune getting through the defences or because of a fire on boards, it is clear that they are not up to snuff.

    Obviously I was completely wrong about Putin being very smart and wanting to prolong the state of uncertainty that he had created to obtain concessions. I fully accept I was wrong on that front, and I also thought it might have been possible that he would have got concessions (although it is somewhat speculative to say that he would have).

    As for Ukraine asking for more weapons, so are Russia. They've been asking China for assistance and they are also trying to bring old tanks back into service. This is perfectly normal for a prolonged conflict. Indeed, the Soviet Union was asking for help from the other Allies right up to 1945, so there is nothing wrong with that. I'm also not sure that it is accurate to say that 10s of billions of military aid has already been given. Certainly several billion have been given to date. But I'm not sure that the 40 odd billion USD promised in the lend lease bill have manifested in Ukraine as of yet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 213 ✭✭bobowen


    Kiev is 8 times the land size of Paris. There was no way they could occupy a city with 3 million hostile people of that size which is why Kiev was largely unscathed compared to the South and East. Remember Putin was around as a young man when Russia invaded Afghanistan and realised how impossible it is to occupy a country with a hostile population.

    If they wanted to seriously take Kiev it would look like Mariupol does now. All they want is the South and East and they are well on their way to achieving that goal.



  • Registered Users Posts: 213 ✭✭bobowen


    It is interesting that the reports that the Russians were running out of bombs a month ago have petered out with the Donbass advancement.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭jackboy


    Tens of billions have not been given to them. A lot has been pledged to them. That have received a lot and more on the way but they have not got yet most that they were promised. Also, disturbing than the 40 billion promised by the US is not specifically for Ukraine so who knows what will happen to that.

    Russia is very weak, Ukraine will defeat them if the west want them to and give them the required support.



  • Registered Users Posts: 213 ✭✭bobowen


    Ukraine with help from the US has spent the last 8 years heavily fortifying a line of defense all along the east of the Donbass. That line has now been breached and the Russians will take their time creating cauldron after cauldron until they achieve their goals. They are battle hardened from their success in Syria which increasingly looks like it was a training exercise for this conflict. Whereas the Ukrainians though fighting for a worthy cause and not for money like the Russian soldiers don't seem to know how to fight this kind of war.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,693 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Advancing 2km per day is not the sign of a particularly successful offensive. Nor can the Russians maintain their loss rate indefinitely.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,503 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Your argument isn't really logical. It's inductive reasoning based on the idea that the Russians can't make mistakes. That is to say, when you are presented with the fact that the Russians could not have succeeded in taking Kyiv, your conclusion is that they must have intended to fail. You haven't considered the far more likely analysis, which is that they seriously underestimated the Ukrainians and believed that they could take Kyiv with minimal resistance. Putin said himself of his "special military operation" that "Its goal is to protect people who have been subjected to abuse and genocide by the regime in Kyiv for eight years". Now, you could I suppose say that this was also part of the feint, but it seems obvious that his plan was regieme change in Kyiv.

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/24/putins-speech-declaring-war-on-ukraine-translated-excerpts

    The reason why they did not take Kyiv is that they would not have been capable of doing so while keeping the Russian army intact. They might have destroyed a large part of it, but they would have destroyed their army in the process. And they are incapable of holding it.

    Reports were that they were running out of precision bombs which were capable of being used without GPS (which they were blocked from). Have they gotten more of these or established their own GPS network since then that I haven't heard?

    Regarding conventional explosives i.e. dumb bombs, they have loads of these. It is the primary reason why their attacks are so savage - they are indiscriminately blanket bombing areas because they lack the ability to carry out precision strikes on military targets.

    Both Ukraine and Russia withdrew heavy equipment from the area in accordance with Minsk II. They are taking their time and they are advancing, there is no doubt about that. But, and it's a big but, this is primarily because they have shown themselves incapable of advancing any faster without causing serious problems for themselves. They are advancing a few kilometers a day and calling it victory. At this rate, it would take them a year to reach the Dniper. And that is assuming that they do proceed at that pace and the Ukrainians dont carry out any counteroffensives or hold them up on some fronts, as they routinely do.

    The Russian doctrine seems to be similar to the Soviet one in WWII. Attack on multiple fronts and, whereever you succeed, concentrate there. So when you hear of them succeeding in one area, you don't hear about the other areas where their attacks failed.

    I don't know what the basis of you suggesting that the Ukrainians don't know how to fight this kind of war comes from. Considering that they are outnumbered on paper by a factor of at least 3 or 4 to 1 and sometimes 10 to 1, it is obvious that the Ukrainians are punching above their weight and Russia are punching below theirs, except that when Russia is 3 times the size, they still have the advantage.

    To borrow a phrase, the Russian strategy is to send wave after wave of their troops and bombs until they advance. Not a particularly skillful strategy, but it is currently working for them, after 3 months of heavy losses.



  • Registered Users Posts: 213 ✭✭bobowen


    It took them over a year to take Aleppo. But they took it eventually. Its how they wage war.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,693 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl



    They were not facing anything like similar opposition and absolutely cannot maintain this level of loss for a year. Their army will be completely combat ineffective unless there is a drastic change and a breakout.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,503 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    It took nearly 4 years to take Aleppo. If that is how Russia wage war then we can expect them to be at Dnipro in 2050



  • Registered Users Posts: 213 ✭✭bobowen


    Pretty sure that's exactly what everyone in the western media said would happen in Syria and it didn't. Time will tell.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭Field east


    The war in Syria is/was a completely different war to theUKR one

    (1) from what I know there were very few RU soldiers on the ground and those that were on the ground were not in direct combat

    (2) Russian bomber planes were the weapons of choice

    (3) the opposition had little or no means of shooting down these planes

    (4) Ru was invited in by the Syrian gov so it had a VERY SOLID partner on the ground

    (5) there was little or no fear of reprisals from the Syrian ‘opposition’ as Russia was the ‘proverbial ‘ miles away - except for a type of jihad/subside bombers. But this ‘option’ has so far not been ‘taken up’. Maybe the Ukarianins should have a chat with the Syrian opposition and ‘work something out’!



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    I don't recall that but admit I didn't follow it much at the time.

    My surface impression of reporting of it was that Assad was deemed to be saved/safe & the "rebels" etc. had had it once Russia got deeply involved in shoring up his regime. US were never likely to get militarily involved themsleves trying to remove him - even if they did act in Syria to an extent in the end for other reasons [ISIS].

    Anyway it is hardly comparable to this war, and wouldn't seem to give much of a guide as to how this will all end up.



Advertisement