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What Will happen when Generation Rent Retire?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    You don't know anything about me, you don't need to be a CEO to be earning those types of salaries FYI. I am just giving my opinion, I am not trying to insult you or your opinions. I think fundamentally the system here is completely broken and doesn't work for anyone. Governments have painted themselves into a corner with their obsession with pulling people out of the tax net rather than investing long term. I don't think this is sustainable, I don't believe in the country in the medium term and I have made my plans accordingly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2




  • Registered Users Posts: 7 G0ldp001


    Entire Europe is very happly doing it for decades!


    Most Irish people retire to spain anyway! what difference it makes? Cash in retirument fund move to spain! 😀



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    I am finished responding to your insults and I am not going to stoop to your level. Ireland will have to broaden it's tax base if it wants to be successful long term.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I wasn't insulting you. I was asking when is the leaving do?

    And I think I've demonstrated your bellyaching is playing the poor mouth in a big way.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 29,554 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ...or another option of increasing taxation on wealth, increasing public debt, i.e. and using this debt to create new assets, and utilizing polices such as sovereign wealth funds, to make sure the wealth generated is more evenly distributed, particularly amongst none asset owners, i.e. younger generations!



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    So something like the "National Pension Reserve Fund" then? It's a good idea, the issue is you have to resist the urge to spend it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,554 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78



    no something similar to Scandinavian countries, whereby all citizens gain, as they have from their own fossil fuel backed funds, we could easily do it, we clearly urgently need to build new properties, and we also need to radically change our energy network towards renewables, perfect opportunity to use such funds, it would be a good start in dealing with our growing social problems, including rapidly growing wealth inequality



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    So, Norway uses the profits from it's massive oil reserves to build a huge wealth fund and that's great. What would we fund it with?



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,554 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    we would have to heavily borrow, including borrowing from ourselves, in order to create the new assets, these new assets would always remain in public ownership, and placed into the funds. from the use of these new assets, wealth would accumulate over time, and we can use this to part fund our needs, as countries such as norway does.....



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  • Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭Horn_of_Africa


    On what basis do you believe there is growing wealth inequality?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    This may come as a surprise, but Ireland has the highest market income inequality in Europe. That is, before taxes and social transfers do their business, the gap between the lowest income deciles and the highest deciles is the most extreme in the EU. (Only the UK was worse before they fecked off).

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/income-inequality-in-ireland-the-devil-is-in-the-detail-1.4653255

    Our progressive taxation and transfer system levels this out to about average in the EU after transfers. But, and it's a big but, we do not want the level of market income inequality in the first instance. It displays that there is a very very significant amount of people on low incomes in this country that only get by on transfers - and we have a poster on here that wants to dismantle it because he wants his teeth whitened for free. Go figure.

    The problem is structural. You can read threads on here to bate the band about low quality work and how a large part of the economy and employers are addicted like crack to it, with the state picking up the tab.

    Pull the plug on it and you have social disaster garunteed.

    Further, wealth in Ireland is stored in bricks and mortar. It should come as no surprise that access to housing is a metastisising issue. So even leaving income aside, there is a widening wealth gap on that front also.



  • Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭Horn_of_Africa


    According to that Irish Times article income inequality in Ireland was at its lowest level in 2019, and has decreased over recent decades. So why are people saying that income inequality is increasing? It's decreasing according to that data.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    After transfers that is correct. Before transfers we have the widest market income inequality.

    Our taxation system is noted for being the most progressive in the EU.

    In essence we have to a large degree an employers charter where labour is easy-come-easy-go, a large low cost labour cohort in the workforce and declining standard in a lot of sectors. And if there's problems, the state picks up the tab. HAP is the biggest glaring example of that. Over 1 in 2 households in the private rental sector are accessing HAP. Crazy, but these people can't afford to put a roof over their head any other way.

    That's the devil's bargain we've struck.



  • Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭Horn_of_Africa


    So people are talking bollix basically. Income inequality is decreasing. On top of that, poverty has been falling over time. Things are pretty good in Ireland, on a relative basis of course. We are one of the wealthiest countries in the world in the wealthiest era in history.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Yes Horn of Africa. All is rosy in the garden, your work here is done.

    What a conclusion to reach on the evidence presented to you.

    Good boy *rubs belly*



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    "Data from the Structure of Earnings Survey suggests that Irish wages are more unequally distributed than in any other high-income European country when comparing hourly earnings at the 10th and 90th percentiles by some margin. This relationship holds for full-time employees.

    Similarly, Ireland has relatively high earnings inequality in the Business economy out of the 11-country sample (2nd behind the Netherlands). The gap between the top and bottom has remained relatively static since 2006, though it has narrowed in some countries (Germany and the UK for example).

    Comparing hourly earnings by Purchasing Power Standard (PPS), top earners in Ireland can buy more goods and services than any of their equivalents in high-income EU countries with an hour’s wages, while Irish earners at the bottom can buy least.

    Similarly, the ratio of hourly earnings between the median (50th percentile) and the top (90th percentile) is highest in Ireland and has widened since 2006. The difference between the bottom (10th percentile) and the median/middle (50th percentile) is also relatively high (3rd), though this inequality has improved moderately since 2006."

    2021 Report.

    Do with that what you like or spin it how you like. Crude market income inequality before the intervention of the state is the highest in the EU.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,554 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    we primarily store wealth in the value of assets such as stocks, shares, bonds, land, real estate etc etc, of which the ownership has become heavily concentrated over time, particularly towards older generations, this is forcing younger generations into an impossible situation, as more and more are simply unable to get access to the ownership of such assets, this is particularly evident in property markets. this is a clear sign of rapidly growing wealth inequality, even though we still struggle to represent this in metrics such as gini coefficient etc



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    I guess renters who decide to continue renting will have the foresight to be investing. The sa.e issue about housing is the same for every generation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    "Renters who decide to keep renting"

    "Housing is the same for every generation"

    Read those back to yourself there. Then read them again.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭Horn_of_Africa


    Asset prices rose substantially over the last decade due to extremely low interest rates and quantitative easing, that's in reverse now.

    Discretionary income gaps between top 10% and bottom 10% of earners reached the lowest level in decades in 2019 according to the Irish Times article posted a few posts above. That indicates that wealth inequality has been falling over the previous few decades.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    You don't get a mortgage on social transfers, and you don't build wealth on social transfers.

    The article was in reference to income inequality and how it's defined, not in wealth inequality, which is distinct and not captured by the article.

    You're engaging in a form of denialism here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭Horn_of_Africa


    There's nothing stopping anyone in Ireland from becoming wealthy. People are free to start their own business, get the education they need to climb the corporate ladder and free to invest their income in assets.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    a fuckin tax on word count would have a few of ye making right contributions



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    Unless we turn into Sweden with high taxs we will always need rental units, people need a place to live while they save a deposit , and Low paid workers may never be able to buy a property. Irish voters would not vote for a Swedish type government, we might get a government coalition maybe fine Gael with the greens or sinn féin maybe slightly left wing depending on how gen z votes for

    The rental market basically worked OK here at least until 2006 before the housing crisis got worse and rents increased every year.

    Our booming economy attracted extra workers from the EU to work in retail hotels cafes etc

    At this point I don't know if any Irish government in the present political system can make much of a difference in the housing crisis while trying to control inflation and work with the EU to improve the supply chain



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Fun fact - wages increased an average of 10% a YEAR during the 1980s in Ireland. The old fogies yapping on about paying high interest rates - for a few months - can take a run and jump. They were also paying high interest rates on a very low amount.

    They also lived in an era of mortgages of 8 to 15 year terms not being uncommon with 18 to 22 years being the high end of the scale. Not this 35 and 40 year stuff.

    Done on a single wage too. The equivalent in todays high female participation would be both adults in a couple working part time. How wonderful that would be. This generation literally works twice as hard for half as much. Or if you really want to annoy the older generation - tell them that they worked half as hard as this generation.

    The hidden costs being less time with children who are shoved off to childcare for long hours. Remember time and your health are the most precious things you have. You never get time back.

    Anyone who ignores this systemic shift is a liar, or they are stupid, or uncaringly oblivious. Root them out and dont leave them unchallenged.


    Oh and they got to retire, and at a younger age too. Somehow this generation, despite our supposed economic success, needs massive crush loading migration to ensure they can retire. Migration so high it impacts everything and pushes rents skyhigh and house prices out of reach. So unaffordable in fact that people have children later, have less and many have none. So apparently we need more migration again then. Chicken and egg. Cure is worse than the disease.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    The discrepancies between Ireland and the likes of Germany or the Nordic countries is at the lower end , whether coming into line with those countries in terms of the tax code would give rise to a significant increase in poverty ? ( as you adamantly predict) is really beside the point.

    Middle and higher earners in Ireland are not taxed lightly, referring to averages with Ireland doesn’t really work as we are such an anomaly at the lower end.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    It's very much the point. What's the point of a tax policy that drives hundreds of thousands into poverty generating further transfers?

    You say middle earners aren't taxed lightly. You're fudging words. That surely has a relative meaning to peer countries. Relative to EU countries, middle income earners in Ireland sit bang in the middle in terms of how their taxed relative to EU peers.

    High earners aren't particularly highly taxed relative to peer countries either.

    Hard facts, not pathos.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Are those countries where lower earners pay about four times as much tax as here , seeing very high poverty levels amongst lower earners ?



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