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Air Corps SAR

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  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Tomorrow is only the deadline for the PQQ to assess the bidders' suitability. Initial tenders are due in June and final tenders are due in October.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    So thats the end of the that!. Its a bit Ironic KPMG saying the air corps bid was not crediable considering KPMGs history in audits

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/air-corps-bid-for-rescue-service-was-not-credible-66xrstg9g

    Post edited by roadmaster on


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,441 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Would you stand over that statement in a civil court? Would your opinion be the balance of probabilities, or would their status as one of the Big 4 accountancy firms say confirm that your statement might be somewhat defamatory? (even if it is the bottom of the 4).



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    EDIT: i did not accuse anyone of wrong doing but I would say if you google KPMG and Scandal there is a long history

    Post edited by roadmaster on


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,441 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Fact is it was not a credible proposal and everyone knows it.

    It said the Air Corps would provide the service, all it needed was the helis it didn't have (and which would normally take up to 4 years to purchase).

    Not to mention the staffing shortage and the inability of the AC to keep the airfield operating 24/7. The Only reason GASU keeps going is the large crew of civvy contractors.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭roadmaster




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,441 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    If by "operate" you mean "provide pilots and aircraft storage for" then I'll have to admit I do not know. AGS never wanted military pilots, and it is not done anywhere else I know of. Here we are though, 25 years later.

    It could just as easily operate from Weston or Dublin airport, with suitably qualified civilian pilots. It's stretching the ATCA role to the absolute max. Will be interesting to see what happens when the Offender is retired.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    They could easily have the likes of CHC operate GASU from there base dublin airport and if HEMS in athlone turns private like the new southern operator, you could easily free up pilots,crew and aircraft to reform Army Co-Op Squadron



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Psychlops




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    A very well written post from a poster called na grohmit taken from irish military online below:

    In 1979 during a Papal visit, we were treated to the sight of the then pope being ferried around this isle by either an Irish Helicopters Bell 212 or a Borrowed S61, escorted by a team of bodyguards being flown on a Puma Borrowed from the West German Border Guard. Marked temporarily with "GARDA" In large letters on the side. For the weekend, having been flown in on the state owned airliner, The Polish head of the Roman Catholic church was ferried around my a fleet of helis never before seen south of the border.

    The S61 stayed, getting lots of use delivering crew to the Gas rigs being built off the Cork Coast. Shortly after the Air Corps managed to Lease a Puma too, (Formerly owned by Prince Ras Tafari himself) which in time could have provided the long range SAR tat up to then was being provided by the RAF and RN helicopters from Brawdy, Valley or Chivenor. But it was costly for poor Ireland to run, and having demonstrated its potential during the winter of 81/82, was returned to its owners, and we struggled on with Daytime SAR provided by the Air Corps in the Alouette 3, and everything else by the UK, or if things were really bad, the US.

    In 1984 yet again we were treated to the sight of Ronnie Reagan being ferried around this primitive isle in massive helicopters. Things we couldn't afford obviously. We are too poor for that.

    The People of the North west, west and south west begged the government to provide a 24 hour SAR service, because waiting for a Heli from wales could be the difference between life and death for an injured fisherman. We'll look into it, said the Govt of the day in their usual cowed expression deep inhale like a mechanic telling you how much that service will cost.

    The Air Corps by now had been recognised many times for their expertise in SAR in the worst of conditions. They have a large collection of DSMs and MMGs for rescues well beyond the ability of the Alouette 3. It was clear that given the right tools, they could provide so much more. 2 Pumas were the obvious answer. Super Pumas even. There are books from the early 80s that tell with confidence that the Irish Air Corps was expected to purchase 2 Super Puma for SAR. At the same time the Naval Service were developing Eithne as a design & concept. Initially everyone in the NS (the majority of officer who had trained as cadets witht he RN) knew the RN would be happy to assist us with getting to grips with using a Heli aboard ship, and the ship was designed for a Lynx size heli. The Air Corps would operate it of course.

    So 2 Super Puma for SAR, a third for Troop transport, and 2 lynx for the Navy.


    Then for reasons unknown to everyone, we went from 3 pumas and 2 lynx to 5 Dauphin, a new, untested french offering from the Nice folk in Marseilles who had been so nice to us when we got Alouettes. Their Test pilot would train our crews (of course he would also use our new ship to develop his own test pilot skills while flight testing the aircraft destined for us).

    Dauphin could do everything! SAR, Troop transport, Naval Operations, VIP transport. It was state of the art, with a 5 Screen EFIS, unseen anywhere before that. Middle screen was radar, and all your primary instruments were digitally displayed, instead of having analog dials for direction and altitude/attitude at least (you still had analog dials for the engine metering).

    Once the french guy had trained up our pilots, they needed to work up to do SAR in a larger, 2 pilot aircraft. That was priority. Pressure was on to deliver a 24/7/365 service from Baldonnel. An hours flight from the western seaboard, 2 hours flight from the edge of our EEZ.

    It was a nice shiny heli that became very popular with Taoiseach & Ministers, who loved to be photographed arriving at their constituency to open a new GAA pitch or Parish hall, or school extension. Problem was this use ate into the availability for other work. Try to keep an aircraft available for SAR, keep pilots current, while at the same time training techs, and maintaining all five.

    Lots of promises to keep.

    Remember the Families in the west and North west? They have seen these new helis delivering Ballot boxes to the islands at election time, and ferrying the Taoiseach to and from Meetings and were wondering why do they still have to wait an hour for a Rescue heli to arrive from Dublin? Why are the RAF still doing the Long distance jobs? They Demanded one of the Dauphin be based on the West coast.

    In 1989 the Govt commissioned a report by an expert group, led by a former Garda Commissioner (I Know) which recommended then the purchase of Medium range helicopters. This was when the Dauphins were barely run in! That September the Government decided to Base a Dauphin at Shannon, and re-introduce the Alouette 3 for Daytime SAR from Baldonnel. Price Waterhouse followed shortly after, recommending the immediate purchase of 4 Medium Range Helicopters for Search & Rescue. In the meantime, in July 1991, the Government decided to engage Irish Helicopters to Provide a Medium Range SAR service from Shannon Airport. Indeed the then Minister for Marine then went so far as to suggest not only would there be an S61 in Shannon (which Irish Helicopters were happy for the Air Corps to use for conversion training if they felt the need to).There would also be a Heli At Finner camp available for SAR and even Cork, when not aboard LE. Eithne. Time passed, the Dauphin that was at Shannon went to Finner, and an Alouette went to Waterford for Daytime SAR.

    Happy days. Civvy heli doing the long range work, Air Corps dealing with the Night time short range and some daytime only work on the east and southeast coast. Then the Infamous day when the Dauphin commenced at Waterford. And within 24 hours the sight of the spare Shannon based Civilian heli being detailed to cover this station following the Loss of Dh248.

    As we all know the Accident report for Dh248 was pretty damning of the helicopter, the pressure the crews were put under to deliver the service, and soon after many Former and current Air Corps pilots spoke out about how they had been complaining for years about its weakness, but were ignored. It seems when one approached the then minister to relay his dissatisfaction with the aircraft it put an end to the Air Corps doing SAR. The proposed replacement for the Dauphins, the long awaited S92/Cougar/EH101 came to nothing, the money spend elsewhere following irregularities with the tendering process.

    Last week the Coast Guard celebrated providing a SAR helicopter from Waterford for 20 years. As we know they provide a 247/365 service with 5 S92 working from 4 bases, at Shannon, the Old Air Corps Hanger, Sligo (because they didn't want to rough it in Finner) Dublin Airport and Waterford. No mention of the lives that were lost that got them there. It seems that all you really needed all along to provide a long range Search and Rescue Heli service on the island was to throw large wads of cash at a private company to do it for you, and as R116 demonstrated, answerable to nobody..

    If privatisation of state services and assets is considered Thatcherism, then the Irish Coast Guard Heli service is the most Thatcherite of all.

    Where did we suddenly get all this money to allow a private company to buy new aircraft to provide the service to us, aircraft we, the taxpayer will never own? We who were too poor to keep 1 Puma operating.

    Why are the DoT so reluctant to allow the Air Corps to operate even one aircraft in SAR?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I Just read the FOI document that Gerard Craughwell released. One think that comes across that Air Corps GOC seams to have done his homework and is well able to fight his corner



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,441 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    What the post above neglects to mention is once the Air Corps decided to go the French route for a naval heli, the door was closed for training with our nearest neighbours. Their deck's at the time weren't rated for our aircraft, ours weren't rated for theirs. None of the RN pilots flew Dauphin. The opportunity for the NS crew to utilise deck landings from RN aircraft it would encounter in international waters, and keep the crew trained up on handling etc was lost. The French Navy were still using the Lynx, as were all the Navies on the atlantic seaboard. In fact Our Dauphin was the only one to land on a french warship for many years, flown by a French Pilot before the aircraft was painted in our colours and delivered to us. Even the pilots had only one ship to train on, and obviously that wasn't going to spend all it's time at sea. The USCG used a similar type, The Dolphin, but not aboard ship. The Saudi Navy had a few 365F with different avionics though, but Learning to land on a Saudi corvette in the calm sheltered waters of the Gulf were SFA use to a pilot who would spend his career working from the bouncing deck off the Irish West coast.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Not only in that post it has being mentioned several times the military expected to get lynxs, what happened that the dauphin came instead?



  • Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭shillyshilly


    USCG Dolphins were regularly forward based on CG cutters at one point (still might be, I haven't kept up to date)





  • Registered Users Posts: 3,441 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    The later types were, but the version in use when the NS were commencing operations with our 365Fi was a much earlier variant without a Radar, the HH-65A(you can tell by the blunt nose, compared to the bulbous nose on the radar equipped versions) which was only used for coast & surf rescue (As seen in Baywatch). The Bear class cutters were at this stage still operating with a Sea King variant, though by 1990 the Dolphin could operate from the deck, but using a totally different deck landing system. In Europe we were using the Deck Harpoon system, while the US & Canada were using (and still use) the Beartrap system.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,441 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Nobody knows. All the navy knew was suddenly all the plans that included a Lynx profile in the ships drawings, had to be amended to show a Dauphin profile instead. I think some useful head height was lost inside the hangar as a result, I'm unsure, as a Lynx never landed aboard in the end. I believe the Hangar was designed to provide an upper working platform to carry out daily checks on the Rotor head, instead of having to climb on the aircraft in a pitching vessel.

    Ancientmariner may know more in this regard. He was front & centre for that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    Why do the Air Corps want SAR? to justify their existence? Their primary role is to support the Army, they cant do it, the AW139 spends more time rotating airframes for EAS duty. So people want a crumbling air arm to take on another task when its already struggling with what is has, 2 Casa & 1 of them has its FLIR removed. Also exers on Twitter showing that the recent PC9M flypasts only had 2 ship formations due to lack of aircraft availability due to nobody available to service them, years gone down the drain, no SAR for 20 years yet now they can do it?

    Speaking of which, Ive never seen the AW139 fleet all fitted with FLIR/Winch at the same time, how many do they have? And the 139 is not fitted with RIPS.

    If they cant even fulfill their primary role why would you add more onto them?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    You will have to send your email to the GOC of the Air Corps to find out?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,441 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    While I'm in agreement with your point, the principle of the thing is in question here. DoT moved goalposts to keep Air Corps out of the game completely. When challenged by GoCAC, DoT seem to have ghosted him.

    The fact is, having a high tempo operational environment is good for morale. In the NS, while pay & conditions were always shite, people started leaving in droves once the Med missions finished up. A high stress operation, in very challenging conditions, but a chance to work alongside other EU naval forces, doing a Naval role.

    Or

    Stay at home boarding stinky trawlers because SFPA couldn't be arsed.

    Same goes for the Army, if the Leb and Golan wound up in the morning with no alternative large mission to replace it, there would be nobody left in the army by the end of June.

    Sure SAR isn't quite at the level of delivering 105s to a forward fire base, but it still gives everyone in the organisation a chance to use their training for real, and make a difference while doing so. Plus, if you have an experienced SAR team, its only a short step to be able to provide a Useful CSAR team for some future overseas operation.

    Or we could spend our days flying from athlone to collect a casualty in the west, and landing at UHG.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    I get that but the issue is it is the Military, I dont think the people that joined the IAC thought they would be flying EAS nearly all the time in 3Ops, as it stands it is simply a branch of the HSE at this stage, they really should be doing their primary military function. Rewarding work yes absolutely but not what they were bought for.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I seen in on the pictures today celabrating 10 years off 112 there was a A3 in the photo. Is the A3 still flyable?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    In other Militaries yes, not in the IAC. Shes a gate guardian now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    In the below seante debate reference is made to a 400 page plus submission by the air corps for SAR. Is that document in the public domain?

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/2022-09-21/24/



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,441 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    No. Doing so would invalidate the tender process for the next SAR contract.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I taught with the Air Corps ruled out it may have surfaced. But reading through the debate i see they Air Corps was still in talks in August what ever that means



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,074 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Hard to know what it means. The Air Corps are not a competent authority to submit tenders, they have no commercial remit or discretion to offer service level agreements.

    Only the DoD can.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Any word on how many companies tendered for the SAR contract? Tenders orginally where to be submitted last month



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,074 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    ETenders website seems to be offline at the moment, probably getting some maintenance over the festive shutdown.

    But if the DoT have any post-tender / pre-Award announcements to make on the subject, thats where they will be made.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    If CHC didnt win the contract it would be interesting to see if the new company took over the existing bases and aircraft or if they went with different aircraft and bases. I think waterford is the only base that is secure thanks to the local TDs



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,074 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Most commonly, under the Transfer of Undertakings protocol, the bases and equipment would transfer to the new provider with a financial settlement. All Personnel must transfer to them.

    Given the sector at issue, I would guess that bases and personnel will transfer, but probably not the aircraft.

    However I think all that is probably moot. If someone other than CHC gets the contract, I'll eat my hat.



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