Military conscription, cowardice, and refugees.

31-05-2022 3:00pm #1

The Ukrainian refugee thread has raised this quite a few times, with some posters expressing condemnation of the Ukrainian men who didn't stay to fight. Ukraine had conscription of a large section of age groups for males. However, Ukraine is neither in the EU, nor has Ireland ever encouraged the concept of conscription being ab acceptable practice. In addition there was the claim that men who didn't fight should operate in the logistical aspect of the war effort, but there was no similar suggestion that women do the same. (I'd also be of the opinion that a woman could fire a rifle just aswell as a man, but I guess similar equality in such respects is highly unlikely)

Now, personally, I don't agree with conscription, and believe that it runs counter to the freedoms that we are so proud of in the West. Also, we don't know the individual circumstances of those who come to Ireland, and so, males should be accepted equally with females. Some of the men might be parents whose significant other stayed in Ukraine as part of the logistical support, or perhaps they're widowers/single parents. Or perhaps they have some kind of disability that excludes them from service. And then, there are those who simply don't want to fight in a war. I wouldn't consider that to be cowardice, but simply a choice to be made. TBH I'd probably avoid a war myself unless I had no real option otherwise. I do think most westerners who have never been trained in the military or aren't particularly fit physically, would likely be the same.

I've seen a lot of grandiose claims online from posters about what they would do in such a situation. Stepping up to fight if their country was under attack, but in reality, it's all hot air, because Ireland is unlikely, if ever, to face such a situation.

Lacking any State policy/decision made public that Ireland would enforce the conscription of Ukrainians, and return males to Ukraine to fight or face "justice", why shouldn't Ukrainian males make the same journey as females to come here for sanctuary and support?

At the same time, I'd like to expand this beyond the Ukrainian conflict.. With the Syrian conflict, we saw very large numbers of young males enter Europe as refugees, but there's wasn't (at least from what I've seen) the same condemnation for their refusal to fight in their war. Same with Ethiopia or a dozen other conflicts across the world, where people (both male and female) have left as refugees, and accepted here as such. Is the only difference that Ukraine employed conscription, and that justifies the condemnation of those males fleeing? Or is it because Ukraine is seen {now} as being European, and so a higher standard is extended to them, that isn't applied to those from the M.East or Africa?

I'd be curious to see what kind of discussion we could have about this. Not simply about Ukraine, because then the thread would be merged with existing threads (or shut down), but also the case of other conflicts around the world. And what about the future? What about when/if China goes to war over Taiwan, should we exclude both Taiwanese and Chinese males from seeking refugee status, as you can be certain both countries will have conscription as part of their policies..?

And later, if/when the EU creates a coalition military, how would you feel about conscription should the EU face a major war? In all honesty, without the posturing common on the internet, would you step up to fight, welcome conscription of yourself and others, or be against it? And if you would be against it, how does that apply to other conflicts and other nationalities?

BattleCorp · 31-05-2022 3:38pm

I don't know how I'd react in that situation to be honest. I'm not really in favour of conscription as it's someone else deciding whether or not to throw you into a meat grinder. I'd like to think I'd be willing to put up a fight but if you were facing overwhelming odds against coming out alive, I think I mightn't be so inclined to volunteer.

31-05-2022 3:48pm

Conscription is a disgusting concept.

It's a concept where the political elite are themselves shielded from warfare, yet they have no problem throwing other people's children into the cavity of death.

Furthermore if you want to talk about women, there are many women who would happily sign up to defend their homeland. Let's not forget that, either - nor assume that they should all stay at home and change the nappies.

A 24-year old woman with unlimited motivation to defend her country is far more valuable to the defence forces than a 44-year old obese man void of any motivation or energy.

As the Ukraine War has shown, it's often not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog; and that applies to the individual just as much as it applies on a country-wide level.

brokenangel · 31-05-2022 4:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058248238/military-conscription-cowardice-and-refugees

Someone sitting at home/office in a nice safe country on a device is complaining about people not staying and fighting.

Dyr · 31-05-2022 4:05pm

I suppose the concept is good, you should be willing to fight for your people as a citizen. But given that Brazilian Deliveroo drivers, English language "students" and REIT funds are not my people, Ireland can go an shite if it thinks I'm dying for any of that.

Muahahaha · 31-05-2022 4:23pm

At the same time, I'd like to expand this beyond the Ukrainian conflict.. With the Syrian conflict, we saw very large numbers of young males enter Europe as refugees, but there's wasn't (at least from what I've seen) the same condemnation for their refusal to fight in their war.

I think there is a key difference here, Ukraine is fighting for its very existance as a country, if it loses this war Russia will subsume all its territory. Syria isnt the same, its an internal war between between rebels and the Assad family dictatorship who have ruled the country for decades. Irrespective of who wins in Syria it will still exist as a country at the end, Ukraine wont if it loses against Russia.

Regardless of the ins and outs of the argument there is nothing abnormal about wanting to live with your wife and kids somewhere safe during war time, its a perfectly legitimate position to take.

In any case I wouldnt take much heed of Boards keyboard warriors critisizing Ukrainian male refugees for fleeing war while claiming they themselves would stay and fight. Its just pure gung ho keyboard warrior posturing, its very easy to type and judge other peoples actions from the safety of your own home.

Padre_Pio · 31-05-2022 4:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119140679#Comment_119140679

I take it you won't be answering the phone when Micheál Martin calls you up to fight for your homeland.

Collie D · 31-05-2022 4:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119140679#Comment_119140679

I also consider myself as not one of your people.

Dyr · 31-05-2022 4:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119140800#Comment_119140800

I will in the hope whoever has invaded will geolocate the **** from the call and drop some heavy ordinance on him.🙂

joseywhales · 31-05-2022 4:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119140679#Comment_119140679

Do you live in the ifsc or something? You've described less than 1% of ireland

riffmongous · 31-05-2022 4:32pm

I remember seeing plenty here on boards say the same thing about male Syrian and Afghan refugees.

Conscription itself is a pretty awful concept in most cases anyway

31-05-2022 4:38pm

I love that the argument is basically, "why won't you stay and kill a bunch of people, you monsters?"

Subzero3 · 31-05-2022 5:05pm

Fighting for Putin is no different to fighting for Leo.

osarusan · 31-05-2022 5:09pm

"Some posters" are just contrarians full of absolute shyte and relentless grinding negativity though.

breezy1985 · 31-05-2022 5:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119140679#Comment_119140679

Ide die for them before I ever would you.

whisky_galore · 31-05-2022 5:29pm

Needs a gender quota...

jam_mac_jam · 31-05-2022 5:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119141035#Comment_119141035

I don't think either should be forced to serve. Only people who want to fight men or women should fight. I don't blame anyone especially if they have children to not want to fight.

Conscription is horrible and has no place in a modern country.

mikethecop · 31-05-2022 5:56pm

i m sure there will be an interesting dynamic when the war is over between those who stayed and fought and those who didn't.

Ukrainian standards and attitude's are not Irish or even western Europe and attitude's and standerds

Fandymo · 31-05-2022 6:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058248238/military-conscription-cowardice-and-refugees

If you won’t fight for your country, why should anyone help you or those who can’t fight? Put up the white flag, take whatever shit your conquerors land on you and shut up. Why expect others to do what you won’t??

Deserters should face full sanctions for leaving their country when under martial law.

31-05-2022 6:13pm

Ireland today is a nation of cowards who present their cowardice as moral and superior and sanctimonious. This country has no business praising Ukraine: we are utterly incapable of their spirit, ferocity, military organisation and self respect. We should all just stfu.

Feisar · 31-05-2022 6:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119141091#Comment_119141091

On average men make better soldiers. Discrimination would be treating the same people differently, men and women are different.

31-05-2022 7:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119141217#Comment_119141217

i m sure there will be an interesting dynamic when the war is over between those who stayed and fought and those who didn't.

I vaguely remember an old movie from decades ago which showed the condemnation by those who served during WW2 (in the US) vs those who remained at home working in the factories, or whatever. I guess it's something that comes up regardless of which war it is.. although I suspect it's stronger in a culture like America which is so heavily invested in the military and patriotism

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119141227#Comment_119141227

That's more to do with the political corruption, black markets, and shutting down of personal freedoms done by the State, though. Ukrainian democracy has always been paper thin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119141248#Comment_119141248

Deserters should face full sanctions for leaving their country when under martial law.

Deserters would have had to serve first, in order to desert. If you're a civilian facing conscription, but have avoided it, you're not deserting anything. You're simply avoiding a government order, no different from Americans who dodged the draft during the Vietnam war. They'd be breaking a law.. which makes them criminals, but not deserters.

If you won’t fight for your country, why should anyone help you or those who can’t fight? Put up the white flag, take whatever shit your conquerors land on you and shut up. Why expect others to do what you won’t??

Are they expecting others to do what they won't? Have you seen such opinions expressed by Ukrainians or others who refused to fight? I suspect you're making quite a leap here...

As for the rest, the vast majority of Ukrainians called up for conscription have served, so we're only really talking about a relatively small number (maybe 10-15k out of a population of 18 odd million (males)). So, this extreme reaction of yours is rather extreme.

31-05-2022 7:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119141448#Comment_119141448

On average, that takes into account all aspects of being a soldier, including the upper body strength to pick up/carry a wounded companion over long distances. However, most battles in Ukraine have been urban, and many of the general requirements for being an optimum soldier becomes less of a factor.

Oh, and in the case of guerrilla warfare, South American rebel groups have shown time and time again that women are perfectly capable of soldiering and having the brutality required for such tactics. Tactics that would suit urban combat. The same was shown with the German invasion of the Soviet union, where many women served on the front lines. The problem with the soldier debate is that the modern professional soldier carries a lot on a daily basis, so physical strength becomes a major factor. However, in a defensive, or urban setting, you've got lesser distances to travel and greater opportunities to work from established bases or supply zones.

Men and women are different.. but so too are different kinds of combat. Women are perfectly capable of engaging in a wide range of military operations... It's just that the best kind of soldiers have the capabilities for a broader range of situations.

31-05-2022 7:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119141594#Comment_119141594

We only have to look at the 1916 rising, where women in the Irish Citizens army took an active part,

Feisar · 31-05-2022 7:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119141594#Comment_119141594

Yup on average and agreed women are just as capable in a lot of rolls. Then we also need to look at pandering to men who do not like seeing women being blown up in conflict. It's funny we will rape the enemies women but lose morale when our own get blown up. So is it worth having women in the front line if their losses demoralise the men?

Richard Hillman · 31-05-2022 8:18pm

I am pretty sure Ukrainian men with 2-3+ kids were allowed to leave the country and avoid conscription.

If you are single, with no obligations I feel it is your duty to defend the motherland. Even if you are actively against the government of the day. If there is an active threat of your nationhood being erased, then you must put your individuality aside and be a cog in the defence of the motherland.

housetypeb · 31-05-2022 8:28pm

“History did not demand Yossarian's premature demise, justice could be satisfied without it, progress did not hinge upon it, victory did not depend on it. That men would die was a matter of necessity; WHICH men would die, though, was a matter of circumstance, and Yossarian was willing to be the victim of anything but circumstance. But that was war. Just about all he could find in its favor was that it paid well and liberated children from the pernicious influence of their parents.”

― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

Muahahaha · 31-05-2022 9:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119140840#Comment_119140840

yeah and especially in the context of Syria, like who or what would you be fighting for at this stage? You have Russia and Iran in there on one side, then Turkey, Saudi and Israel on the other. And then at various stages the US, UK and France getting involved too. But if your group were funded by them they soon pulled their support so your left there with in your Toyota Hilux and an AK47 trying to fight against air strikes from the Russian airforce, best of luck with that

I doubt any Syrian who stayed to fight Assads forces really knows what they are fighting for anymore. Its just one giant proxy war and then a whole load of other factions like Hezbollah, ISIS, Al-Queda in on the ruck as well. The notion of fighting for democracy or any kind of statehood is long since gone, the Syrian war is 11 years old and 500,000 dead at this stage. Those who got out did the smart thing becasue the country is just a play thing of much more powerful nations at this point. There is absolutely nothing to be won by staying there and fighting yet posters on Boards ask why they dont.

Fandymo · 31-05-2022 9:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119141562#Comment_119141562

They deserted their country. Anything else is semantics.

31-05-2022 9:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142096#Comment_119142096

That simple logic could be applied to everyone who left, male or female, regardless of their individual circumstances. Hell, you could apply that to teenagers too. After all, it's all semantics.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119141657#Comment_119141657

Rape has been a convictable offense in most modern conflicts, and socially/culturally unacceptable in most cases. There have been very few western conflicts where the rape of women (or men) in wartime was tolerated.

And TBH I'm not so sure that women being killed would demoralise the men any more than seeing their own male comrades getting blown up. There's a lot of assumptions when it comes to these things, probably because women generally haven't fought in western wars, except as civilian casualties. Israel seems to manage pretty well with having active frontline female soldiers who run the real risk of being shot or blown up. So.. how much of it is intentional conditioning to encourage westerners to believe that such losses would demoralise men? (as opposed to actual fact that it was the case)

blanch152 · 31-05-2022 10:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119140999#Comment_119140999

Leo makes it into every thread.

Manic Moran · 01-06-2022 12:59am

It's worth observing that in adherence to the policies requiring complete gender integration in combat arms, the US Army changed its physical fitness test from the old system graded on age and gender (the APFT, Army Physical Fitness Test) to a new test with grades based purely on role and which did not take age or gender into account (The Army Combat Fitness Test). The new testing events were based off real-world requirements, like lifting oneself over obstacles, dragging casualties, throwing things, etc. It's actually quite an ass-kicker, far nastier than the old APFT which, in fairness, had very little to do with combat and a lot more to the fact that it was easy to administer and required no equipment.

The results, women were failing at an alarming rate.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/05/17/more-female-soldiers-are-passing-acft-their-scores-still-trail-mens.html

The first solution to increase the pass rate was to simply lower all the standards to the lowest common denominator, so that no matter what your job was, you could pass the minimum army standard. So a 21-year-old infantry soldier could pass with the same standard as a fifty-year-old finance branch clerk. Still too many women were failing, so they put an alternate test for instead of the hanging leg tuck, which requires lots of upper body strength, which women tend to lack. That still didn't work, so the US Army's standard is now changed again, now on age and sex, making it easier for women (and old farts like myself) to pass.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-03-23/u-s-army-s-new-fitness-test-ditches-gender-neutral-scoring

Democratic Senators Kirsten Gillibrand of New York and Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut, who both sit on the Senate Armed Services Committee, led U.S. lawmakers in criticizing the initial exam because it could endanger the professional prospects of women soldiers, in particular.

With respect to conscription, it's the ultimate survival tool of a nation. With citizenship of a country comes duties and responsibilities to it. One expects various services to be provided by the government, to include the security of the State, the State is going to use every asset at its availability, to include its manpower in order to ensure its survival. If someone flees conscription, that seems to me to be a matter between them and the country of origination. I don't believe loss of citizenship is a common punishment (though there is an argument in favour of it), but prison terms certainly are.... assuming the country survives to implement them.

Allinall · 01-06-2022 7:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142664#Comment_119142664

Because the army need to have an average of ability among it's members. There will obviously be a number of soldiers who are above average.

Therefore they need a cohort who are below average.

dorothylives · 01-06-2022 7:35am

I watched a Sky News report where journalists carried heavy containers of water up the stairs for an 86 year old woman who cares for her seriously ill 81 year old sister on the 3rd floor of an apartment building that has no lift. Those elderly ladies refuse to leave even though they live in dire straits. As the reporter pointed out, these ladies have zero chance of making it to a shelter if there's an air raid. But they refuse to leave, it's their home. It made me weepy watching it, knowing they were living in hardship before the war and seeing how much harder their lives are now, nobody that age should be living like that.

Then I look around me at all the very healthy young fighting age men who came here and all over Europe. Call it cowardice, call it self preservation, call it whatever you like but I don't have anything other than contempt for healthy young people with no responsibilities like being a single parent or the only carer for an elderly or disabled relative, leaving their country behind and abandoning the vulnerable for a better life for themselves. If they won't fight for their country why should we or any other country give them anything at all?

Whether you agree or disagree with conscription, if people won't fight for their own countries survival, men and women, if they won't stay behind to help the vulnerable who can't leave, then why the frick are we expected to take them in and pay 10K a head just for accommodation for them? Why are we rewarding cowardice with accommodation, food, full social welfare, a medical card, free education, including 3rd level education, to people who aren't even EU members?

Why are we overburdening a health care system with almost 1 million people on waiting lists, children being given an appointment with a consultant in 249 weeks? Why when we have a massive housing shortage, shockingly high food and fuel rises, which will only get worse, are we burdening ourselves with people we have no obligation to? Why in the hell are we spending tens of millions on them when we need that money ourselves?

Feisar · 01-06-2022 8:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142664#Comment_119142664

I dunno, I don't make the rules. However there are loads of jobs that don't involve killing and dying. For example the US tooth to tail percentage is 10%.

Furze99 · 01-06-2022 8:28am

I have no problem at all with Ireland giving shelter and support to genuine war refugees as many of the women, children and elderly fleeing Ukraine are. It's most likely that many will wish to return to their country of birth when this is all over, who wouldn't.

But I do have a problem with able bodied Ukrainian men of suitable age, who have been asked/ ordered by their own state to assist with the defence of their state. They should be doing their bit in whatever way they can, back in Ukraine.

We the Irish public and Europe in general are taking and going to take significant financial pain in terms of supporting Ukraine. The least we may expect is that able bodied and eligible Ukrainian men pull their weight.

And many Ukrainian women are participating in the defence of their state, so it's nonsense to turn this topic into some sort of gender war.

Fandymo · 01-06-2022 8:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142664#Comment_119142664

Same reason we have 4’10” police women who are about intimidating as a baby bunny. Because everyone has to be equal no matter what the consequences.

circadian · 01-06-2022 8:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142466#Comment_119142466

We should give this phenomenon a name, blanch152's law.

circadian · 01-06-2022 8:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142843#Comment_119142843

Where are they? I haven't seen swathes of able bodied Ukrainians in Ireland.

osarusan · 01-06-2022 10:22am

Your determination to turn this into a gender thread is sad.

Montage of Feck · 01-06-2022 10:34am

If you have kids fair enough I suppose but single men have no excuses.

01-06-2022 11:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119143524#Comment_119143524

So, pointing out that women are capable of being effective soldiers, and using the same logic that other posters have used to dismiss it, is suggestive of a gender thread?

Yourself and Furze have sought to dismiss this as a gender thread. The terrible "gender war" claim. Based on that logic, any discussion that challenges the status quo regarding the place of the genders, can be dismissed as a gender thread. Why seek to shut down discussion of it? At least Furze remarked on conscription and Ukrainian men, your only post in the thread was to make allegations of turning the thread into a gender thing.

01-06-2022 11:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119143585#Comment_119143585

Physical or mental disabilities don't matter? How about working abroad in the efforts of drumming up support for the war effort? (Support/aid was hesitant in the beginning, then it flowed, and now it's stuttering again..)

How about genuine beliefs in pacifism? It wouldn't be a philosophy I would sign up for, but I can appreciate those who wouldn't sacrifice their morals/values.

end of the road · 01-06-2022 12:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142096#Comment_119142096

they didn't, they simply got out to protect themselves and their families.

people have every right to flee a war zone, only a dedicated military have an obligation to fight as conscriiiiion is against human rights.

brokenangel · 01-06-2022 12:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119141798#Comment_119141798

No, guy who lived in UK went skiing over in Ukraine, then war broke out and he wasn't allowed to leave as he was from Ukraine, even if just on holidays. He had 2 kids

dorothylives · 01-06-2022 1:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142875#Comment_119142875

If you read my post again you will see that I did also specify women. As for you not seeing young healthy Ukrainians in Ireland, either you are being willfully naive or deliberately disingenuous. I got off a bus a couple of hours ago, on the way back the bus stopped outside a well known hotel, 3 young Pakistani staff got off to work at the hotel another 10 Ukrainians got off to stay in the hotel. Nobody over the age of 40 odd and only 2 with kids. There's already huge annoyance at this with this not just among Irish people but with other nationalities who came here to work. There was huge support initially but anyone honest enough to admit it only has to look around them to see we've been sold a pup on this one. We are getting far too many young healthy people who really don't need to be here.

dorothylives · 01-06-2022 1:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119143014#Comment_119143014

When this war is over we'll also be told that we're paying to rebuild Ukraine.

circadian · 01-06-2022 1:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119144226#Comment_119144226

Sounds like a Daily Mail article.

01-06-2022 1:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119144816#Comment_119144816

Yup. We will... and then, we'll be told that we're paying to support an EU military so that this never happens again.. although it will. Wonder what will happen if the current Irish military doesn't meet the demands from the EU.. wonder if people would be so accepting of conscription then?

brokenangel · 01-06-2022 1:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119144818#Comment_119144818

I don't think it was but does it make any difference?

his wife and children back in UK gave the interview.

dorothylives · 01-06-2022 1:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142875#Comment_119142875

Absolutely. Any able bodied single person without commitments to children or elderly/disabled relatives should be at home fighting for their country. Jesus, all anyone has to do is take a look back at any of the stuff from the 1st and 2nd world wars to see the difference in attitudes. Part of the problem is people running away, why should Ireland or any other country spend huge amounts of money and scarce public services on people who are running away from civil war in their own countries? How many men who run away will go back do you think? Do you think the men who stayed to fight will respect them or that the women who stayed will want them? Sure, the women who go back will be OK, nobody expected them to fight, which is weird given gender equality and if the media is to be believed there are a lot of Ukrainian women fighting.

Military conscription, cowardice, and refugees.

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