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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    Yeah, there seems to be a disconnect between the desire to defend a democratic state from invasion and actually having to bear some fairly minor personal pain as a result. Which feels pretty insulting to the Ukrainians actually fighting and dying.

    Maybe our politicians aren't doing a good job of explaining this to us. But it is most definitely worth it if it muzzles Putin.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭thomil


    It's not that. For me, this whole thing goes a lot deeper. Germany and its population occupy a special place in history, due to the horrendous crimes committed and due to the fact that we were still invited back into the global community. I was raised in the spirit that we as a nation have a special responsibility not to let the horrible events of 33-45 repeat themselves. That means using every means possible to prevent another war, but at the same time standing up to those countries that use military force to redraw the borders in Europe and not standing idly by when concentration camps are set up again, entire districts depopulated and deported. This is where we're failing big time at the moment.

    Germany, in its post-war constitution, is prohibited from using military force in anything other than self defense or treaty obligations, so I get that a direct involvement in Ukraine would not only be problematic from a political point of view, but possibly illegal. I also get that the state of the Bundeswehr is atrocious, to put it mildly, and that a lot of weapons are needed just to get that force to something approaching an acceptable state of readiness. However, Germany has a very capable defense industry, and at the very least, Germany should be expediting delivery of their products to Ukraine. The very fact that not just the Chancellor, but the minister of defense and senior officials within the Ministry of Defense, need to be publicly shamed into doing so is just infuriating for me. We should know better and do better!

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users Posts: 797 ✭✭✭Glenomra


    do you genuinely expect German voters at the next election to care even a tiny bit about how Germany supported Ukraine! Like every other electorate they will vote on economic and social matters, not geo-politics.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭Hobgoblin11



    Deutschland unterstützt die Ukraine- Germany back Ukraine

    Dundalk, Co. Louth



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭thomil


    The "good" thing is that Scholz is torpedoing himself there as well. His domestic policy is turning out to be just as disastrous as his foreign policy. He and his cabinet look to be singularly unable to address the issue of inflation, the ongoing collapse of the German healthcare system and numerous other issues. Basically, every SPD led ministry seems to be foundering. The only ones who seem to be doing a semi-decent job at the moment are the Greens, which is a sentence I'd never thought I'd write.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    The Germans have been the bulk funders of the EU for decades now, yet retain strong support for it.

    Which would knock your theory into a cocked hat....



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,515 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Give up the fracking talk will ya. It's a **** show of a method of getting gas out. Closing nuclear was and is a mental decision.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭thomil


    Bit of an update regarding the IRIS-T system. German military blog "Augen geradeaus" reports that these will be brand-new units fresh from the manufacturer. It looks like Germany is planning to redirect a battery (3 octuple launchers, 1 radar vehicle, 1 command post) currently being assembled for Egypt to Ukraine at short notice.

    The manufacturer, Diehl Defence, currently has the capacity to produce two batteries a year but is apparently looking to double this capacity. If this goes through, and given we're talking about Scholz who's announcing that, it is a BIG if, Ukraine might see a steady supply of these systems even beyond the first battery. As I said, loads of "Ifs" still surrounding that, but this has the potential to be a game changer, especially since Ukraine seems to be running low on S-300 missiles.


    Edit - Here's the link to the source: Deutschland will Flugabwehrsystem an die Ukraine liefern – Iris-T SLM aus deutscher Produktion – Augen geradeaus! (German, obviously)

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,035 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Germany gets far more back from EU than it pays in, however it comes via private industry (German businesses selling to other EU members). Level of German trade surplus vastly exceeds their EU contributions. They would be mad not to support it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭charlie_says


    It can a **** showif unregulated, which is mainly what happened in the US when Bush changed it so and it got a horrible reputation. It can be done safely, it's just that a successful media smear campagin has lodged that it's awful in the minds of the public. Much like what what was done with nuclear, and some of that was actual real state sanctioned legitimate Russian disinformation campaign over long period of time to continue their oil and gas sales. As well as other oil/gas lobbies.


    At lot of "anti green" technologies are fine and many of the "green" solutions cause far more emissions and cost due to their need for storage but just call the people who say it a climate change denier (which is a mental term when you think about it) and silence them.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,636 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl



    The Guardian "comment is free" section is basically the opinion of whatever random person wrote the column. They often have wildly competing opinions in it. It is not an Editorial.

    So basically your point is that "Simon Jenkins says sanctions aren't working" and I don't care what he thinks.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,882 ✭✭✭✭josip


    I think the only game-changer in Ukraine will be something that can target the Russian artillery safely. ie. when Ukraiinian howitzers can chuck shells at the Russian howitzers while remaining out of range. I thought the 777s were supposed to bring that about, maybe I've misunderstood something.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭charlie_says


    Oh I don't expect it to be free, quite the opposite I expect doing something like that would be very expensive and ultimately kill people. I think it's a stupid idea.

    EU leaders seemed to have settled on a policy that is simultanously stupid, easy to get around, as various countires in EU and other states will just sell on the Russian energy, and will raise the prices for everyone which will enrich Russia further so they can blow up the weapons that are supplied to Ukraine with essentially free unlimited artillery shells.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭charlie_says


    Lucky for you they haven't formed your opinion wrong!



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Do you mean the economic sanctions on Russia (and/or increasing them in future) will kill people in Europe?

    I would like to hear the intelligent suggestions if the EU/EU members Ukraine policies are all "stupid" (you have not provided any).

    Is your suggestion that EU members do nothing + carry on Business As Usual with the Russians? You should state that very clearly IMO.

    I don't think the war is free or even cheap for Russia. I doubt the increased oil/gas prices will cover all the people and weapons they are burning up throwing them onto the fire in Ukraine (even if Putin himself doesn't personally seem to care about such costs...)



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,815 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Kasparov is very much opposed to Putin and the invasion.


    He'll differ with much of the Western European leaders in many regards



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭victor8600


    If anyone harbors any illusions about Russian war aims being the "liberation of Russian speakers", or "denazification" or any such nonsense, please watch this video which explains that Putin fights for the practical monopoly in the EU energy market:




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭thomil


    Point taken. However, security of supply lines and rear areas is almost as important, and Ukraine has been struggling with that as of late. It appears that they're running low on missiles for the S-300 medium/long range surface to air missile system, which has been doing the brunt of the heavy lifting when it comes to Ukrainian air defenses. The increased number of successful cruise missile strikes in recent days could be an indication of Ukrainian missile crews choosing only select targets to engage in order to conserve missiles.

    IRIS-T SLM, the system that Germany is looking to send in the next few weeks, covers roughly the same engagement range and altitudes as S-300, with the advantage of being a brand-new 21st century system that is likely leaps and bounds ahead with regards to simultaneous engagement of multiple targets, resistance to jamming, mobility and accuracy. Deploying such a battery say around Odessa would free up some of those S-300 batteries and missiles to be sent to other locations. And if Germany does actually send further batteries later this year, this could really provide sum much needed relief for Ukraine. Especially since IRIS-T missiles are much easier to get at the moment, given that they're a) currently in production and b) also used on the Eurofighter Typhoon and other similar aircraft.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,510 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Check out the replies underneath his opinion piece. Most people think his analysis is quite bizarre - concentrating on how EU sanctions are "cruel" and hurting people whilst ignoring the elephant in the room that is Putin's invasion.



  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I hereby announce that I will personally be donating dozens of anti-tank, anti-aircraft and anti-ship weapons to Ukraine.

    If anyone wants to come back in 3 months and it hasn't happened, don't worry, I'll be more specific then.

    Words are easy.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    It's pretty simplistic rehashing of information, and not a whit of an alternative. It looks a lot like an obligatory 500 word puff piece to get people shouting at each other. Much as I generally like the Guardian they do allow some God awful opinions masquerading as fact to be published. Jenkins is one of them, Reich too can rant and rave as can Monbiot and Arwa Mahdawi.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,510 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    I believe Jenkins is a former Brexiteer who 'claims' to have seen the error of his ways, so it's not a surprise that he might hold cranky opinions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    We can all be cranky but it's no excuse not to follow the basic tenets of presenting an argument, especially in someone who's paid to have opinions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,510 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    His analysis is very strange. He seems far more put out by EU sanctions than by Russia's actual invasion (and is also ignoring that many countries outside the EU have imposed sanctions on the regime).



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭Hobgoblin11


    retreat and live to fight another day should be the mantra for the Ukrainians almost encircled in the East

    Dundalk, Co. Louth



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,882 ✭✭✭✭josip


    The UKrainian crossing of the Inhulets at Davydiv Brid will be interesting to monitor. Th early Russian advance to occupy a significant portion of the west bank of the Dnipro was presumably to provide a buffer zone around the start of the Crimean Canal at Nova Khakova.

    I would expect the Russians to very strongly defend the territory between Davydiv Brid and NovaKhakovka. They've had 3 months to dig in and fortify their positions. And the Crimean Canal is vital to their overall mission. There's not much point having a landbridge across southern Ukraine to Crimea if they don't have any fresh water.



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Circular seems to be largely the German way for now. Also a deal with Greece.

    The tardiness that some may have perceived in what they are doing may also have been tied up in the need to make a constitutional change on defence spending, agreed just a few days ago.



  • Registered Users Posts: 218 ✭✭shivaz


    Big changes today from Scholz.Germany wants to supply Ukraine with multiple rocket launchers.70km range

    Chancellor Olaf Scholz (SPD) promised Ukraine the delivery of a modern anti-aircraft system to fight Russian attackers. In addition, the Ukrainian armed forces will be provided with a modern locating radar that can spot artillery.

    "In the coming weeks, we will deliver twelve of the most modern self-propelled howitzers in the world to Ukraine, in close cooperation with the Dutch," Scholz continued. The training of Ukrainian soldiers will be completed in a few days.https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/in-absprache-mit-den-usa-deutschland-will-der-ukraine-mehrfachraketenwerfer-liefern/28390400.html

    https://www.kmweg.com/systems-products/tracked-vehicles/artillery/mars-ii-mlrs-e/



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,743 ✭✭✭zv2


    It may be that countries want to keep their own gas/oil in case the world becomes unstable down the line and supplies get cut off.

    “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” — Voltaire



This discussion has been closed.
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