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Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,952 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Robin McBryde. He was the Welsh scrum coach for years under Gatland and he was the Lions scrum coach last year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,518 ✭✭✭ersatz


    ——



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,518 ✭✭✭ersatz


    @kane toad

    They were one knock on or turnover away from not doing it. They spent 78mins behind. They were deserved winners but you're deluded with your "comprehensive win" and "tore them a new one".


    And you could just as easily say LAR left points all over the field. Leinster were hanging on and didn’t get to play their game, they struggled because LAR brought a game that prevented Leinster doing what they do well and they ended up paying a game they didn’t seem prepared for, that generated a lot of mistakes. Go ahead and rationalise it as close in the end or the bounce of a ball in the difference but guaranteed that’s not how Leo will regard that game. LAR prevented Leinster from scoring a try for the first time in years and going for points every time cost Leinster the match.



  • Registered Users Posts: 726 ✭✭✭durthacht


    I forgot how miserable boards.ie can be after a defeat. Dear God.

    Leinster have been the best team in Europe for almost all of this season, with an almost entirely homegrown team. They had an off day in 30 degree heat away from home against an excellent rival, and still came within a minute of winning the most competitive club tournament in European rugby. The match was a toss up, and would be if the two teams met again.

    Time for a little perspective everybody.

    I'm going to log off for a couple of weeks until a little sanity returns to this thread.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,651 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    It was a close game, its not really up for dispute.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    Maybe that's an exception that proves the rule. Or maybe Toulouse are just a touch off the level they were at last season. Their away record would back up the latter argument.

    If you look at it, the stats are quite stark - and I know it's unfair on Lancaster to exclude his league title wins when he's done better there than any other Leinster coach.

    SL: 1 trophy from 11 major competitions coached

    MJ: 1 from 4

    JS: 5 from 11

    EJ: 3 from 8



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,581 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    He's stealing a living! Bizarre, how poor our scrum is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,717 ✭✭✭Shehal


    Or maybe La Rochelle are the exception that proves the rule?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,172 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Leamy has confirmed that he's returning to Munster for next season. Leinster will be on the lookout for a new contact skills coach.

    I think we'll miss him. Leinsters dynamic attack has been centres around forwards constantly getting beyond the gainline. That's happened because they've used footwork pre-contact to get the best carrying angle to gain an extra metre.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    A lot of the silliness is coming from a small number of extremely frustrated and deeply immature people and liberal use of the ignore function clears things right up. If everyone did it (and then re did it when the same attention seekers created new accounts) then the quotes would stop and I'm sure after a while the kiddies would go find some other playground to vent their angst in.

    Every time someone replies, it guarantee's more and more posts.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭Itxa


    If I remember correctly it was also small margins that had MOC fired. We have had small margins now for 7 seasons and one European cup. That is not enough silverware considering we have the biggest squad and salary pool in Europe. MOC got fired for no silverware in 4 seasons? How about 7 with more substantial support and largest salary pool in Europe? Added to this the French and English have much more packed calendars and relegation to deal with and that has come to the fore in recent years moreso than in the past.

    To blame it on the players is a cop out. This sits on Leo’s shoulders. He is the head coach and has been out thought when up against a top team in Europe for four seasons. He got the tactics badly wrong on Saturday. Repeatedly being stopped behind the gainline is unacceptable and we have shown we have no counter plan. It’s been a recurring short coming internationally and with Leinster and to blame it on the size of our opponents is a deflection.

    Triangles and pullback passes only work when you have a Contepomi attacking the gain line repeatedly. Sexton didn’t threaten the first zone in defence and with pullbacks we just got swarmed in the 12 channel and repeatedly stopped behind the gain line. Relying on one attacking strategy and having no alternatives shows poor planning and preparation.

    I would also be looking at Dawsons head to roll. It’s unjustified to place all our best players and money into one province and then fail time over and again. How can they justify the inequality between struggling provinces? We know Dawson is leaving so who comes in. An Internal promotion? The crowd in there live in such a bubble I don’t think change can come from an internal promotion. It is all parochial bias and small town tribalism. It’s monotony multiplied. A total clearout is what is needed at this point!

    I would like to see Lancaster given a shot as head coach or I would like to see another Michael Cheka or Matt Williams brought in. I think we have to outsource to get a top coach capable of delivering varied game plans. The thinking is too one dimensional at the moment in Ireland and despite all the good work done on squad building we lack tactical nouse to deliver at the top end of Europe.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,172 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    SOB confirmed as new contact skills coach for next season. Not sure how I feel about this. I know he has a bit of coaching experience, but that's at a far lower level.




  • Registered Users Posts: 17,172 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    The entire post above is flawed as it constantly points to Leinsters inability to get beyond the gainline as the reason for their defeat to La Rochelle.

    Leinster had a lot of collision and gainline success last Saturday. Far more than La Rochelle in fact. In terms of physicality both sides were pretty evenly matches. This isn't a game where Leinster couldn't deal with a physical onslaught ala last seasons semi final.



  • Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭Itxa


    Flawed? Those stats are averages. I’m not talking about the X dozen times a forward trucked it up 1-3 yards to bring our gainline success averages up.

    I’m talking about the several attacking platforms we had off lineouts or rucks where we were closed down behind the gainline.

    Are you saying we werent running laterally and getting closed down behind the gainline?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,581 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I think this will be divisive. Not talking about his ability as a coach, just that incident when he pissed on a lad. He's got no experience so it could backfire.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,172 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    There are plenty of instances from last weekends game where Leinster made it beyond the gainline, generated quick ruck ball, made a line break and then messed it up with handling errors. This was a final against a very good La Rochelle side. We weren't going to have the same gainline dominance as in previous rounds. But Leinster had more than enough of that to actually win the game. Unenforced errors in attack and also failures in clearing their lines led to that defeat.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,581 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Would Leo be bumped up to Dawson's job? Or, is that job filled already? Who could Le.inster bring in to coach the scrum? McBryde is not getting the job done. In hindsight, Leinster did well to go as far as they did with a floundering scrum. I feel without a solid scrum, we will not win in Europe.

    It's also an Ireland issue. The front row are usually the Leinster front row. I think winning any tournament with such a mediocre set piece would be extremely difficult.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Mick Dawson and Leo have completely, dramatically different CV's.

    Leo may well move on but I suspect if he does it will be his decision and not Leinster's. Leo and Lancaster are the most successful coaching team in European rugby, regularly making finals or semi finals in Europe and wining the domestic league consistently with an almost entirely home grown squad.

    The European cup is very hard to win hence why so few teams have done it. Inches of difference would have had the cup return to Dublin this year and the over reaction to the loss is getting a bit much, albeit how much of it is in good faith is debatable.

    There is definitely an issue with the scrum. To suggest it is mediocre or floundering is (in my view) nonsense, but it is a weakness and one that as you say impacts Leinster and Ireland. If it was just down to McBryde then the same issues shouldn't be happening at Ireland level but they are. The greater concern for me is that it's been going on a while and the coaches haven't been able to fix it - this suggests that the problem may not be just coaching, but could be strength and conditioning based and may take an off season to resolve.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Huge competitor and one of the all time great Irish gain line breakers.

    Will be interesting to see what he brings to the table. Seems to be some doubters around the appointment but I don't think it's down to nostalgia or some sense of loyalty - he will have been brought in on merit.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,172 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    La Rochelles biggest in game victory was monopolising possession. They recognised that Leinster, for all their quality, lacks a top class poacher at the ruck. They could flood the breakdown with very big men and stop us from really threatening their ball.

    One positive is that I don't think any other side in the URC can play the way La Rochelle did. The Stormers have comparable size, but play a very transition oriented attacking game. Don't think they'll keep possession as well as La R.

    Besides them, maybe the Sharks could threaten, but they play less than the sum of their very impressive parts. The return of Lukhanyo Am could make a difference though. He's brilliant.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,952 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Leo and Lancaster are the most successful coaching team in European rugby

    Mark McCall



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,172 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Continuing on from the above, even though Leinster lost there are still positives to take away from the game. Namely at the ruck and scrum.

    In terms of ruck work on our own ball I'm not sure we've ever played better. La Rochelle are one of the best sides in the world at targeting the breakdown, but a we did a good job at securing our own ball and clearing them out fast. We vastly improved on our performance at that area when compared to last seasons semi final. We still conceded some turnover penalties at the breakdown, but that's to be expected against a side as good La Rochelle. Over the last few seasons, Leinster have sometimes been sloppy at securing their own ball. It was encouraging seeing us so laser focused at that area.

    The scrum was a positive in that we identified how much pressure La Rochelle were sure to exert on our own put in. So we put the ball in at the second rows feet, kicked back to 8 and had JGP passing all in the space of a second. It was a very impressive bit of work and something that had clearly been worked on in training.

    They're two big improvements to our game and things I hope we continue in with into the playoffs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭Itxa


    Leo and Lancaster are the most successful coaching team in European rugby, regularly making finals or semi finals in Europe and wining the domestic league consistently with an almost entirely home grown squad.

    They are certainly not the most successful in Europe. O Gara has the same number of European Cups as them on his first try with a minnow of a club in a city of 75,000. That’s real success!

    Dont let me go into historically better European coaches but both Guy Noves and Declan Kidney are ahead of them.

    Guy Noves:

     He later coached the side in a tenure that lasted 22 years, when he won the Top 14 nine times and the Heineken Cup four times.

    Kidney:

    He was also the head coach at Munster leading them to four Heineken Cup finals, winning twice in 2006 and 2008.

    That s just off the top of my head not considering McCall, Laporte or Schmidt.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,078 ✭✭✭OldRio


    I'm not sure why you are mentioning population size in a discussion about coaching.



  • Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭letsbefair


    Great news the tank replacing leamy



  • Registered Users Posts: 101 ✭✭tvpc




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    They are currently very much the leading ticket with 4 domestic titles in a row and consistently dining at the top table in Europe. La Rochelle are a wealthy well funded club, that you bring local population into the discussion belies a dishonesty in your argument. Or ignorance - you pick.

    Kidney was a great club coach, but his golden generation Munster team had nothing of the consistency of success and dominance that Leinster have, and that was 15 years ago. I didn't say Leo & Lancaster are the best 'of all time', merely the best at the moment.

    The one name that has been mentioned that actually has merit is McCall as he's brought through plenty of talent and has been scooping up European rugby titles whilst achieving success domestically. I don't hold the salary cap debacle against him because it doesn't apply to Leinster, but they've also not been as consistently dominant.

    Schmidt the other name if you want to delve back into history, but how great a place he left Leinster is debatable, MOC wasn't entirely to blame for the squad he had at his disposal. It's further credit to Leo that he took over as a first time couch and has brought Leinster to where they are. But that would involve actually assessing the guys achievements with some degree of rationality.



  • Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭Itxa


    Ok you accuse me of being dishonest and irrational in my criticism. I can’t make an honest appraisal I can stand behind based on the little information we have about what Leo does and how he coaches and what is the relationship with Lancaster. I would, from the little information and perception I have, say, Leo had the final say on coaching matters which is relevant because there has been some successes and shortcomings. Let us look at how the system works.

    Leo promotes youth sometimes successfully sometimes not so - green card. 

    Let us look at the style of play between the beginning of his tenure and the winning of the European Cup. Some people I know called it boring but for me I would just say forward dominated and battering over in the 22. Obviously this is an exaggeration - I’m judging against historical Leinster professional teams. Red card.

    He won in Europe - green card.

    Since then Ireland being closed down has a correlation with Leinster. We have had these issues with our players being closed down behind the gainline before both with Leinster  (Saracens) and Ireland (England). Do we not have the ability to evaluate and resolve? 4 years we have had these problems. Red card.

    Last 4 years he has repeatedly failed to learn from past mistakes or as some say here players have failed to execute. You are eloquent in your criticism towards me and use the word “ignorance”. I think we are all ignorant here such the veil and lack of transparency that has existed over coaching matters at Leinster Rugby. I know some things possibly more than most here having been educated from a young age in various predominant historical Dublin clubs. But nevertheless I will refrain from condescending remarks. I have no doubt I have more pedigree than you.…..and that I know how it works internally more than you do.

    Post edited by Itxa on


  • Registered Users Posts: 708 ✭✭✭dingbat


    Whatever you are smoking, please share it with all of us.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,581 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Hmmmm!



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