Military conscription, cowardice, and refugees.

Manic Moran · 01-06-2022 1:59am

It's worth observing that in adherence to the policies requiring complete gender integration in combat arms, the US Army changed its physical fitness test from the old system graded on age and gender (the APFT, Army Physical Fitness Test) to a new test with grades based purely on role and which did not take age or gender into account (The Army Combat Fitness Test). The new testing events were based off real-world requirements, like lifting oneself over obstacles, dragging casualties, throwing things, etc. It's actually quite an ass-kicker, far nastier than the old APFT which, in fairness, had very little to do with combat and a lot more to the fact that it was easy to administer and required no equipment.

The results, women were failing at an alarming rate.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/05/17/more-female-soldiers-are-passing-acft-their-scores-still-trail-mens.html

The first solution to increase the pass rate was to simply lower all the standards to the lowest common denominator, so that no matter what your job was, you could pass the minimum army standard. So a 21-year-old infantry soldier could pass with the same standard as a fifty-year-old finance branch clerk. Still too many women were failing, so they put an alternate test for instead of the hanging leg tuck, which requires lots of upper body strength, which women tend to lack. That still didn't work, so the US Army's standard is now changed again, now on age and sex, making it easier for women (and old farts like myself) to pass.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-03-23/u-s-army-s-new-fitness-test-ditches-gender-neutral-scoring

Democratic Senators Kirsten Gillibrand of New York and Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut, who both sit on the Senate Armed Services Committee, led U.S. lawmakers in criticizing the initial exam because it could endanger the professional prospects of women soldiers, in particular.

With respect to conscription, it's the ultimate survival tool of a nation. With citizenship of a country comes duties and responsibilities to it. One expects various services to be provided by the government, to include the security of the State, the State is going to use every asset at its availability, to include its manpower in order to ensure its survival. If someone flees conscription, that seems to me to be a matter between them and the country of origination. I don't believe loss of citizenship is a common punishment (though there is an argument in favour of it), but prison terms certainly are.... assuming the country survives to implement them.

Allinall · 01-06-2022 8:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142664#Comment_119142664

Because the army need to have an average of ability among it's members. There will obviously be a number of soldiers who are above average.

Therefore they need a cohort who are below average.

dorothylives · 01-06-2022 8:35am

I watched a Sky News report where journalists carried heavy containers of water up the stairs for an 86 year old woman who cares for her seriously ill 81 year old sister on the 3rd floor of an apartment building that has no lift. Those elderly ladies refuse to leave even though they live in dire straits. As the reporter pointed out, these ladies have zero chance of making it to a shelter if there's an air raid. But they refuse to leave, it's their home. It made me weepy watching it, knowing they were living in hardship before the war and seeing how much harder their lives are now, nobody that age should be living like that.

Then I look around me at all the very healthy young fighting age men who came here and all over Europe. Call it cowardice, call it self preservation, call it whatever you like but I don't have anything other than contempt for healthy young people with no responsibilities like being a single parent or the only carer for an elderly or disabled relative, leaving their country behind and abandoning the vulnerable for a better life for themselves. If they won't fight for their country why should we or any other country give them anything at all?

Whether you agree or disagree with conscription, if people won't fight for their own countries survival, men and women, if they won't stay behind to help the vulnerable who can't leave, then why the frick are we expected to take them in and pay 10K a head just for accommodation for them? Why are we rewarding cowardice with accommodation, food, full social welfare, a medical card, free education, including 3rd level education, to people who aren't even EU members?

Why are we overburdening a health care system with almost 1 million people on waiting lists, children being given an appointment with a consultant in 249 weeks? Why when we have a massive housing shortage, shockingly high food and fuel rises, which will only get worse, are we burdening ourselves with people we have no obligation to? Why in the hell are we spending tens of millions on them when we need that money ourselves?

Feisar · 01-06-2022 9:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142664#Comment_119142664

I dunno, I don't make the rules. However there are loads of jobs that don't involve killing and dying. For example the US tooth to tail percentage is 10%.

Furze99 · 01-06-2022 9:28am

I have no problem at all with Ireland giving shelter and support to genuine war refugees as many of the women, children and elderly fleeing Ukraine are. It's most likely that many will wish to return to their country of birth when this is all over, who wouldn't.

But I do have a problem with able bodied Ukrainian men of suitable age, who have been asked/ ordered by their own state to assist with the defence of their state. They should be doing their bit in whatever way they can, back in Ukraine.

We the Irish public and Europe in general are taking and going to take significant financial pain in terms of supporting Ukraine. The least we may expect is that able bodied and eligible Ukrainian men pull their weight.

And many Ukrainian women are participating in the defence of their state, so it's nonsense to turn this topic into some sort of gender war.

Fandymo · 01-06-2022 9:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142664#Comment_119142664

Same reason we have 4’10” police women who are about intimidating as a baby bunny. Because everyone has to be equal no matter what the consequences.

circadian · 01-06-2022 9:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142466#Comment_119142466

We should give this phenomenon a name, blanch152's law.

circadian · 01-06-2022 9:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142843#Comment_119142843

Where are they? I haven't seen swathes of able bodied Ukrainians in Ireland.

osarusan · 01-06-2022 11:22am

Your determination to turn this into a gender thread is sad.

Montage of Feck · 01-06-2022 11:34am

If you have kids fair enough I suppose but single men have no excuses.

01-06-2022 12:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119143524#Comment_119143524

So, pointing out that women are capable of being effective soldiers, and using the same logic that other posters have used to dismiss it, is suggestive of a gender thread?

Yourself and Furze have sought to dismiss this as a gender thread. The terrible "gender war" claim. Based on that logic, any discussion that challenges the status quo regarding the place of the genders, can be dismissed as a gender thread. Why seek to shut down discussion of it? At least Furze remarked on conscription and Ukrainian men, your only post in the thread was to make allegations of turning the thread into a gender thing.

01-06-2022 12:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119143585#Comment_119143585

Physical or mental disabilities don't matter? How about working abroad in the efforts of drumming up support for the war effort? (Support/aid was hesitant in the beginning, then it flowed, and now it's stuttering again..)

How about genuine beliefs in pacifism? It wouldn't be a philosophy I would sign up for, but I can appreciate those who wouldn't sacrifice their morals/values.

end of the road · 01-06-2022 1:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142096#Comment_119142096

they didn't, they simply got out to protect themselves and their families.

people have every right to flee a war zone, only a dedicated military have an obligation to fight as conscriiiiion is against human rights.

brokenangel · 01-06-2022 1:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119141798#Comment_119141798

No, guy who lived in UK went skiing over in Ukraine, then war broke out and he wasn't allowed to leave as he was from Ukraine, even if just on holidays. He had 2 kids

dorothylives · 01-06-2022 2:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142875#Comment_119142875

If you read my post again you will see that I did also specify women. As for you not seeing young healthy Ukrainians in Ireland, either you are being willfully naive or deliberately disingenuous. I got off a bus a couple of hours ago, on the way back the bus stopped outside a well known hotel, 3 young Pakistani staff got off to work at the hotel another 10 Ukrainians got off to stay in the hotel. Nobody over the age of 40 odd and only 2 with kids. There's already huge annoyance at this with this not just among Irish people but with other nationalities who came here to work. There was huge support initially but anyone honest enough to admit it only has to look around them to see we've been sold a pup on this one. We are getting far too many young healthy people who really don't need to be here.

dorothylives · 01-06-2022 2:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119143014#Comment_119143014

When this war is over we'll also be told that we're paying to rebuild Ukraine.

circadian · 01-06-2022 2:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119144226#Comment_119144226

Sounds like a Daily Mail article.

01-06-2022 2:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119144816#Comment_119144816

Yup. We will... and then, we'll be told that we're paying to support an EU military so that this never happens again.. although it will. Wonder what will happen if the current Irish military doesn't meet the demands from the EU.. wonder if people would be so accepting of conscription then?

brokenangel · 01-06-2022 2:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119144818#Comment_119144818

I don't think it was but does it make any difference?

his wife and children back in UK gave the interview.

dorothylives · 01-06-2022 2:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142875#Comment_119142875

Absolutely. Any able bodied single person without commitments to children or elderly/disabled relatives should be at home fighting for their country. Jesus, all anyone has to do is take a look back at any of the stuff from the 1st and 2nd world wars to see the difference in attitudes. Part of the problem is people running away, why should Ireland or any other country spend huge amounts of money and scarce public services on people who are running away from civil war in their own countries? How many men who run away will go back do you think? Do you think the men who stayed to fight will respect them or that the women who stayed will want them? Sure, the women who go back will be OK, nobody expected them to fight, which is weird given gender equality and if the media is to be believed there are a lot of Ukrainian women fighting.

Jim2007 · 01-06-2022 2:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119140679#Comment_119140679

You are not being asked for die for any of those things. But I guess if one is brought up with a sense of entitlement and and self-centredness that is what you would think it is all about.

Jim2007 · 01-06-2022 3:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119141281#Comment_119141281

Absolute BS. You and your mates might be like that. But let me tell you there are many brave and caring men and women who daily without a thought from themselves put their lives at risk for the rest of us. Try conducting a boarding part in the dead of night in the North Atlantic in winter and you'll meet some very fine men and women, of the guard who his called out to a domestic and has no idea what he/she is about to step into - a dispute, a knife or a lethal weapon.

There are a lot of brave people will to put themselves in danger for you. So don't tar them with your sticky mess.

Dyr · 01-06-2022 3:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119144964#Comment_119144964

What will we be dying for so? The future of the Irish people? The little thats left of their culture? The little thats left of their language? Thats dangerously nationalistic territory for a country with a global outlook, all the drivers of national sentiment that allow for such sacrifices are now discarded as icky and dangerous

It's all about Ireland 2040 lads, an extra million people. Sacrifice yourself for the generations to come...through Dublin airport 😂

"The ownership of Ireland and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible." that can never be extinguished except "by the destruction of the Irish people." 🤔

dorothylives · 01-06-2022 3:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119144866#Comment_119144866

The Irish military role abroad already changed. The mission went from Peace Keeping to Peace ENFORCEMENT. I don't remember hearing or reading about that whenever it happened, I only heard about it during Michael Martin's PR trip last week for his photo shoot where he said he wanted a debate on Irish neutrality during the life of this government. Now, I for one don't want to change our neutrality, I also don't want to give 2% of our GDP to Brussels for the so called privilege either. There are too many keyboard generals fighting from their bedrooms to make rational decisions on it. Honestly, MM is a huge liability to this country, everywhere he jets off to smart people run rings around him and he gives more and more of our resources away, thinking that he's admired and respected, he isn't, not there and not here.

osarusan · 01-06-2022 4:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119143996#Comment_119143996

Yourself and Furze have sought to dismiss this as a gender thread.

Not true at all.

But to be fair, I should have quoted the post just above mine, as it was that I replying to.

I'm pointing out one poster's (sad, in my opinion) determination to turn what wasn't a gender thread into a gender thread, rather than discussing what you actually laid out in your perfectly reasonable opening post.

Furze99 · 01-06-2022 4:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119144866#Comment_119144866

I'd be anti war as a general principle but I realise how easy it would be to get sucked into it if public & state opinion obliged it. I can see this in previous generations of family who were just ordinary men, but who felt obliged to enlist and do their bit. In the relevant circumstances I've little doubt but that I'd be sucked in and you too, if we were of serviceable age. To do otherwise is to dishonour your state and yourself.

01-06-2022 5:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119145450#Comment_119145450

To do otherwise is to dishonour your state and yourself

Ahh well.. I see thing differently. Oh, when I was a young man, I would have agreed with such a sentiment, but as a middle aged man who has seen how the State treats it's citizens, both generally and personally? Nah.

You see, I look at how Ukraine was before the war. Deep rooted political corruption reaching into business and the banks, even to the point where the president makes a friend the leader of the "internal" police (A cry back to communist days). Corruption within the educational system to such an extent that it's pretty much institutionalised, the censorship of the media, and I wonder would I put my life at risk to maintain that? I don't think I would. Worse yet, when conscription is put into effect, and I supposedly have no choice but to defend that corrupt establishment. Oh, maybe it's the case of defending your own people, but in reality, would there have been many deaths had the government not sought to arm the civilians and fight in the cities? The blurring of the lines between civilians and soldiers.. as seen in Ukraine.

A black/white case of ethnic cleansing/genocide is simple enough, in that there's no real choice but to fight.. but modern wars generally aren't about that. They're focused on regime change, and limited conquest of territory.

I can see this in previous generations of family who were just ordinary men, but who felt obliged to enlist and do their bit

Who lived in different times.. and in a very different society, with very different sets of traditions and morality. Often in societies that were far less "free" than we have today, and far more indepth social conditioning coming from both Church and State... we've sought to move away from that conditioning, and yet, "doing their bit" is a continuance of that same conditioning. Reminds me of the hundreds of thousands, or millions of poor people who fought and died in wars orchestrated by the wealthy.

01-06-2022 5:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119145324#Comment_119145324

To be fair, any balanced discussion about conscription would have to discuss the differences in how both genders are treated in society, and the perspectives on what's expected of them.

If the rights/wrongs of conscripting males to fight are being discussed, it's natural to raise whether the same should be applied for females, as we've moved beyond the purely physical limitations that previously would have excluded most women from active service.

pgj2015 · 01-06-2022 5:32pm

I have to be honest if I see a male Ukrainian refugee 18 to 60 in Ireland these days, I wonder why they are here? How did they get out of staying and fighting. If the same thing happened Ireland I would 100% stay and fight, then when the war is over I would absolutely look down on any able bodied man who fled rather than fought.

pgj2015 · 01-06-2022 5:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119145609#Comment_119145609

No, because they might have kids to look after.

Military conscription, cowardice, and refugees.

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