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Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace


    Sanctions are used as a tool of collective punishment against the civilian population of the target nation. They are never used for altruistic purposes and anyone who believes so is naive at best or plain dumb at worst. They are used to throttle a nation's economy and to foment internal discontent. The reason for the sanctions is purely window dressing to hoodwink the ignorant. The West cares not a fig about Uighurs in China but it's a convenient excuse to level sanctions against China to retard their advance to becoming the World's largest economy and thus challenging the Western hegemonic stranglehold.

    You ask if the world should respond with sanctions. Well if they should then they should at least be consistent. Why sanction Russian oil over the Ukraine situation and not lift a finger over Saudi oil when the Saudis have created the greatest humanitarian disaster in modern histroy in Yemen? Millions face starvation, countless numbers killed and maimed, ports blockaded.

    Or is that to be met with the old "whataboutery" chestnut again to avoid the question?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Targeted sanctions are focused on targeting an individual, e.g. one in Putin's inner circle. Those ones don't really impact the public. Likewise travel bans, assets freezes.

    Targeted economic sanctions tend to focus on a particular area e.g. particular arms imports. They may impact the public slightly, but indeed are intended to target the arms

    Broad economic sanctions do impact the affected country (and public)



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,358 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    That's just a soft article written to minimize the reputational damage to Ukraine.

    The letter that preceded the firing is below.

    Observe the very 1st point they raise.


    https://imi.org.ua/en/news/female-media-workers-call-on-lyudmila-denisova-to-abstain-from-detailed-descriptions-when-informing-i45763

    1. Discloses only the information sufficiently corroborated by evidence; checks the facts before publication.
    2. Reports on what materials have been submitted to the justice authorities.
    3. Verifies and thinks through every word to avoid sensationalism in the messages.




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,358 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    As though Forbes isn't a mouthpiece of US imperialism?

    Look, nothing Russia says or does is going to be accepted as evidence that Crimea wants to be part of Russia.

    Nothing the Ukraine/US side will be accepted by other. It's moot. Russia own Crimea today, they aren't going give it up and i'll wager Zelensky and Biden know that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 213 ✭✭bobowen


    Where is this evidence you speak of? Has it been investigated by independent observers like the UN for example?

    Without independent verification that doesn't involve the western media and the Ukrainian Publicity machine then you are just as guilty as this lady was of spreading "disinformation" as you like to call it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Which was mentioned in the article. Highlighting the parts:

    "Lawmaker Pavlo Frolov said Ms. Denisova was also accused of making insensitive and unverifiable statements about alleged Russian sex crimes and spending too much time in Western Europe during the invasion."

    "“The unclear focus of the Ombudsman's media work on the numerous details of ‘sexual crimes committed in an unnatural way’ and ‘rape of children’ in the occupied territories that could not be confirmed by evidence, only harmed Ukraine,” Mr. Frolov said in a Facebook post.

    Some 90 journalists and over 50 other professionals had signed an open letter expressing concern and outrage that Ms. Denisova had been insensitive in her airing of allegations of sexual crimes, particularly those involving children and minors."

    The poster I was replying to wrote:

    So Ukraine is caught blatantly lying about truly horrific inhuman allegations but they're not the deplorable ones.


    At this point there is no evidence to support any of the claims.

    Which appears to be conflating the firing of an official with there being "no evidence" of rape in Ukraine, which is of course absurd.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,904 ✭✭✭✭josip


    So by refusing to accept Forbes as a reference, by your own logic you are on "the other" side, which is Russia in this case.

    No middle ground, no grey areas, completely on the 'other', Russian side?

    Ok.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Of the top of my head, there have been and are investigations by the International Criminal Court, HRW (Human Rights Watch), Amnesty, the UN has called for investigations and is setting up frameworks. UK and Canada have sent teams in, there's a French team in Bucha (but I don't know if that also includes sexual violence)



  • Registered Users Posts: 767 ✭✭✭Detritus70


    You'd want to be a pretty despicable piece of something else to deny any claims about Russian soldiers raping people in Ukraine over the course of this war and I'd be happy to explain this in person.

    "I'm not a Trump supporter, but..." is the new "I'm not a racist, but...".



  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace


    As were the Irish, Kenyans, Afghans, Rhodesians, etc. when the British Army marched in. As were the Algerians, Tunisians, Vietnamese when the French Army marched in. As were the French, Poles, Greeks, Maltese, Yugoslavs, etc when the German Army marched in. As were the Vietnamese, Afghans, Iraqis when the US Army marched in. As were the Moroccans when the Spanish Army marched in.

    They all seems to stand up and say "hold on a minute".



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    What the Crimeans really wanted isn't the issue.

    Russia illegally annexed the territory, then held a fake referendum, at gunpoint. The Crimeans had no choice. By trying to legitimise that it demonstrates an individual supports that behaviour on principle.



  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace


    Let's not forget the ludicrous stories of Saddam's soldiers throwing babies out of incubators or Ghadaffi supplying his troops with Viagra to rape people or Venezeulans having to eat flamingoes to survive.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    The claims of people eating wild flamingos and other animals came from the Venezuelans themselves

    It's unsurprising in a country which had a severe food shortage.

    Anyway, back on topic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace


    That may be. But by the same token those who are claiming that the referendum was rigged fall in the same category except on the other end of the spectrum, i.e. lifelong Russophobes, bought and paid for Western pundits, biased "think-tankers" etc.

    If the referendum was indeed rigged then why is there no opposition within Crimea to its result? Nobody seems to be able to come up with any form of answer to this question. I put up a link and it's immediately dismissed because the source is the Russian Community of Crimea (FWIW MOST of Crimea is Russian) and yet someone else puts up a Wikipedia link who by their own admission state that they are an unreliable source of information.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    It doesn't matter what the result is. It's a vote held in less than 2 weeks at gunpoint, that's as null and void as you can get.

    Personally I believe that Crimea would have probably voted to join Russia, but we'll never know, because they never had a proper referendum on the matter. Considering they are now controlled by a totalitarian country it's unlikely they'll ever have a normal referendum.



  • Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭myfreespirit


    The thread appears to be infested by pro-russian opinion today, for some reason.

    Back to the facts:

    A. The russian army (thugs, thieves, cowards and murderers, in my opinion) invaded a sovereign independent country without cause, killing civilians and destroying infrastructure across Ukraine in an effort to wipe the country off the map.

    B. The Ukrainian Armed Forces have fought heroically to defend their homeland and push out the invaders. They continue to do so against a stronger opponent - hopefully they will prevail.

    C. The best end to this war will be to see tens of thousands of dead russian personnel and ignominious defeat for the Putin regime. Russia cannot be permitted to hold onto any of the occupied territory of Ukraine.



  • Registered Users Posts: 213 ✭✭bobowen


    Will you be bringing actual evidence or just self righteous uninformed threats Big Man?



  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace


    If you do a search for Gallup Crimea Referendum the very first entry will be:


    "Gallup conducted an immediate post-referendum survey of Ukraine and Crimea and published their results in April 2014. Gallup reported that, among the population of Crimea, 93.6% of ethnic Russians and 68.4% of ethnic Ukrainians believed the referendum result accurately represents the will of the Crimean people."

    So Gallup apparently published these results. Unfortunately I have not been able to locate the published report. Maybe it was taken down or banished into the wasteland of page 200 in a search engine. Maybe somebody who is a bit more tenacious can locate it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,857 ✭✭✭growleaves


    "infested", "cowards"

    Shouldn't you be on the Current Affairs thread?

    This is a discussion forum, not blue and yellow club.



  • Registered Users Posts: 767 ✭✭✭Detritus70


    You're the one rejecting evidence, buddy me old pal.

    "I'm not a Trump supporter, but..." is the new "I'm not a racist, but...".



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  • Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭myfreespirit


    In reply to @growleaves

    These are the salient facts that are gemaine to this discussion:

    Vadim Shishimarin, a russian "soldier", has been convicted of the murder of an innocent civilian in Ukraine. This was without doubt, a cowardly murder. Ergo, he is a russian coward.

    There is ample evidence of theft of farm machinery by russian forces in occupied Ukrainian territory - the perpetrators are thus thieves, hence the use of the English word "thieves" in the previous post.

    War crime investigations are underway in Bucha and other towns in northern Ukraine into the murders of civilians, hence the use of the word "murderers ".

    Do you wish to discuss these facts?



  • Registered Users Posts: 213 ✭✭bobowen


    Here is the beloved Forbes confirming the Crimea referendum results were accurate. Gallup and other polling organisations kept getting the same results poll after poll.

    To quote from the article:

    "One year after the annexation of the Ukrainian peninsula in the Black Sea, poll after poll shows that the locals there — be they Ukrainians, ethnic Russians or Tatars are mostly all in agreement: life with Russia is better than life with Ukraine."

    Even Forbes stopped trying to discredit the referendum years ago.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/03/20/one-year-after-russia-annexed-crimea-locals-prefer-moscow-to-kiev/



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,534 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Reading the reports, it seems she was coming out with rather hysterical language / claims about young children being sexually assaulted by Russian troops, including going into quite unnecessary and lurid detail.

    But nobody appears to be saying that accounts of adult Ukrainian women being raped by the invaders were invented by her. There have been numerous such reports and some of the women have even been interviewed on TV and in the press.



  • Registered Users Posts: 213 ✭✭bobowen


    We can forget about HRW and Amnesty for a start as they are heavily biased and have no legal validity except the evidence that they provide to the ICC and UN.

    So all we have so far are UN investigations and setting up of frameworks to investigate the claims that have come from the same people who just fired their chief for not having evidence.

    That's not evidence. That's unproven accusations at best.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,930 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    The Crimean people wanting to join Russia (or not, or do something else) is irrelevant to the fact that it was a sham referendum.

    When Scotland had it's vote on independence, they had years of preparation, both sides were able to air their views, there was a huge public information campaign for both sides, the referendum was correctly monitored, the processes were properly followed, as they should be.

    The Crimean referendum on the other hand was a parody of democracy in every sense. It broke every principle and tenant of what a national referendum should be. The fact that individuals support it demonstrates how willing they are to sacrifice principles in favour of raw totalitarianism.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭Field east


    Burgerface, you say ‘No opposition ‘to referendum outcome. Will you get up the yard and STAY THERE. I am not Russian and I have never been to Russia but, I understand that if your effort at opposing anything that is gov policy is not part of the official opposition policy you will get ‘a wrap on the knuckles’ eg family will be harrised, ostracised , you might get up to 15 yrs jail if you are lucky because you can also end up being fed on that ‘ contaminated white powder ‘,.



  • Registered Users Posts: 213 ✭✭bobowen



    You're not still arguing the toss on this one are you?



  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace


    "Targetted sanctions" another dismal buzzword euphemism like "surgical strikes" or "pinpoint accurate tactical nuclear weapons". You want to obliterate Dublin Airport a nuke that lands in Balbriggan will do the job. The sanctions levelled against Russia are limited because the West imposes sanctions according to the possible blowback. Why not slap massive across the board sanctions on Russia? Because we'll all be begging our lads in Connaught to start footing turf again. very easy to ban iraq from importing pencils because pencil lead can be made into bullets (i'm serious, that was a sanction), its another thing to sanction someone who can actually hit back.



  • Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Banned from the CA thread on Russia for trolling so what do you expect



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Come on Scotland, do the right thing and let Ukraine win. They deserve to go to the World Cup. Beating them would not be right.



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