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Is it time to join Nato

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    #1772
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119085476#Comment_119085476

    Only turkey is saying no , but neither country is going to bow to Erdogans demands ,

    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #1773
    petronius
    Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭petronius


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119085114#Comment_119085114

    So someone who you disagree with gets labeled "uneducated"! what a horrid and pathetic attitude to have, oh and you think it is unfortunate that people who do not share your view are "allowed" to vote! sounds like you aspire to be a dictator and you should decide whose opinions are of merit.



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    #1774
    petronius
    Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭petronius


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119085512#Comment_119085512

    Ok! then they won't be able to join, if turkey says NO!



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    #1775
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119085532#Comment_119085532

    in fairness, you did manage to get everything in your post wrong.



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    #1776
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Turkey is just playing silly buggers, they are not going to ultimately block accession.

    As to Europe not "tolerating" Ireland's approach to defence, I am curious as to what on earth you think they are going to do about it.



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    #1777
    petronius
    Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭petronius


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119085673#Comment_119085673

    What did i get wrong?

    Any member can block an applicant from joining NATO! Turkey is a member.

    Sweden passed a law in 2019 (sometime before the US did) on the Armenian Genocide, Turkey withdrew its ambassador?

    Sweden has allowed Kurds sought by the Turks for being members of what they term terrorist organizations, they could demand their extradition? Finland also has supported the Kurds in the past



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    #1778
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Her is what you said

    No - neutrality is of great benefit

    it allows us to not side with NATO on its crusades in Iraq, Afghanistan or wherever the next one is.

    Would we spend 2% on our military? what for? we can't even house our own homeless

    For Sweden and Finland it is a bad move, Sweden will have to forget some of its principles, to placate turkey, they will have to shaft the Kurds (a familiar story) and whoever else the Turks demand. They will have to Ignore the Armenian Genocide or never call it such!

    No one is shafting the Kurds and the Armenian Genocide is recognised as such in a number of countries that are already NATO members, including France, Germany, Canada and the USA, so your claims about having to ignore it are blatently false.

    Then there is the question of "NATO Crusades" as you call them, namely the second invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan.

    There are thirty (30) member states in NATO. Of the four original countries that participated in the invasion, only three were NATO members, so that clearly isn't a "NATO Crusade".

    Then there is the question of Afghanistan being a crusade.

    Again, there are thirty (30) members states in NATO. The International Security Assistance Force, which was created by UN Security Council resolution 1386, consisted of forty (40) different states, including three very obvious states, namely Finland, Sweden and in a very very small way, Ireland.

    So in your post you made three claim, firstly that the Kurds would get shafted, yet there is no indication this is going to happen in the slightest, secondly that Finland and Sweden would have to ignore the Armenian Genocide which is demonstrably rubbish and lastly that Ireland would have to engage in NATO Crusades, something which clearly doesn't exist other than in your imagination.

    so yeah, your post wasn't even open to debate, it was just plain wrong, but unfortunately your are not alone in making these mistakes as this thread shows.

    We all laugh at Clare Daly and Mick Wallace, but they didn't lick their opinions off a stone, so to speak, which is why I believe Ireland will never join NATO, as there are too many uneducated hand wringers.



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    #1779
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,406 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61644663

    Denmark joining the EU common Defence and Security Policy...

    So, with Denmark, Finland and Sweden all changing tact, and with Germany building up its army... is Ireland going to say "Ah, sure its grand" or exit Nevernever land and get with the programme?



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    #1780
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,689 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119145771#Comment_119145771

    The NATO opposers just want to freeload on the rest of Europe.



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    #1781
    ittakestwo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    If all countries followed Ireland's approach of being neutral then we would not have wars.


    You know guns are good because they protect you yes? Lets outlaw guns because they will make society safer. Being in nato is like Ireland holding a gun. We weren't a threat to anyone before but now we will if we join nato.


    I dont like nato. I am proud of Ireland's neutrality. As for not pulling our weight. We are taking in 20k Ukrainians. We may not be supplying guns to kill a few teenage russian lads who are unfortunately but to war by short old man but we are helping alot in other ways.



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    #1782
    Irelandsnumberone
    Registered Users Posts: 648 ✭✭✭Irelandsnumberone


    We won't be joining NATO as the majority of the public don't want it



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    #1783
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,406 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    If all countries followed Ireland's approach of being neutral then we would not have wars.


    This is exactly the childlike Peter Pan type of thinking that permeates in Ireland regarding national security.



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    #1784
    Tonesjones
    Registered Users Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭Tonesjones


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119145771#Comment_119145771

    No thanks. We are OK as we are.

    Should we follow everything those countries did / do or should we decide our own path



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    #1785
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,406 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119146945#Comment_119146945

    Maybe we should exit the EU?



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    #1786
    Tonesjones
    Registered Users Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭Tonesjones


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119146961#Comment_119146961

    Maybe we should get to Mars before Musk



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    #1787
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,406 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119146967#Comment_119146967

    Maybe, but unlikely.

    Meanwhile we are up **** creek defensively while a war rages on in Europe. Good to know people live in ignorant bliss.



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    #1788
    Tonesjones
    Registered Users Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭Tonesjones


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119147059#Comment_119147059

    Imagine the logistics of attacking Ireland. You would have to get military equipment across the entirety of mainland Nato Europe . You would then have to sail the equipment beside the militarily strong UK.

    Then what?

    Get surrounded from the west by the United States and Nato on the East.


    Come on.


    Let them fight. If we can mine one asteroid we would have unlimited wealth. Let's do that instead



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    #1789
    Irelandsnumberone
    Registered Users Posts: 648 ✭✭✭Irelandsnumberone


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119147059#Comment_119147059

    Jamie Byrson and the lads planning an attack on Dublin are they?

    Im sure we will be grand



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    #1790
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭eire4


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119147084#Comment_119147084

    It is not just about being physically invaded. That is rare especially in Europe for any country. But we have plenty of other vulnerabilities that our current refusal to address from a security standpoint are an issue. For instance we were attacked by Russia recently in the form of the cyberattack on the HSE which caused major disruption and harm to our health system as well as according to Paul Reid a bill that will top 100m.

    We have a Russian embassy that given our size and it's size is clearly been used as a Russian spy hub in western Europe. We have had Russia navy vessels paying us a "visit" recently and there are vulnerable under sea cables at stake there. Yet we have no radar no navy capability and no air capability to deal with any of those issues. We currently are flat our refusing to carry our share of the load when it comes to the overall security of the EU and behaving like a bunch of freeloaders in this regard just because it is highly unlikely that we will be physically invaded. That is utterly selfish given the enormous benefits we get from being a member of a collective like the EU that we would not be able to enjoy or achieve if we were on our own. Plus there is the fact that we live in a very for all its warts stable and well functioning democracy and enjoy a free and open society. Authoritarian dictatorships have become an increasing problem in the world in recent years and turning a blind eye and appeasement has got us to where we are with Russia. Authoritarianism may not be a direct threat to us physically right now but it is a threat as the cyberattack showed and that fact that we are all suffering from cost of living increases which have been significantly made worse by the behaviour of the Russian dictatorship.



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    #1791
    Tonesjones
    Registered Users Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭Tonesjones


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119147181#Comment_119147181

    The cyber attack was by a hacking group not a Russian government agency

    The ship was in international waters

    We won't be joining Nato I'm afraid .



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    #1792
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,406 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119147084#Comment_119147084

    The only thing they would have to do is sail across international waters and rock up to Galway bay. The Brits and Americans wont come to our rescue, why would they? They are not going to risk a nuclear war over Ireland....



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    #1793
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,406 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119147089#Comment_119147089

    Ironicly, if we were attacked, there would be a million or two refugees streaming north to be protected by NATO and the UK..



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    #1794
    Tonesjones
    Registered Users Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭Tonesjones


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119148171#Comment_119148171

    Sail what across international waters? A dingy full of jar heads?

    Unlikely that Nato, the UK or the US would be willing to be encircled by Russia or China.

    Wouldn't be very sensible policy



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    #1795
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,406 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119148536#Comment_119148536

    Eh, we had Russian Naval ships off the coast of Ireland just a few months ago. Its international waters, the Russians can go where they like, right up to the Irish Coast.



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    #1796
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    NATO is relevant as long as a politician like Biden is in the WH. The reality is that right wing thinking (Trump is the front man who says the quiet bits out loud) is that China is the threat. Russia must be separated from China. Europe is a negotiating chip to them to that end.

    The future of a Europe capable of defending itself lies in much more powerful military and its own nuclear deterrent. Clearly the US deterrent will not apply under future GOP presidents if the scenario above can be achieved. And the piece that will trigger the entire population of boards: the Brits cannot be trusted to be a reliable partner in European Defence in the future. Their goal is the restoration of great power spheres of influence, the division of Europe into competing nation states, the undermining of the EU and restoration of their position holding the balance of power and puppet master. The Defence of the EU cannot be trusted to a third country, least of all to one as perfidious as the UK.

    If you see replies to this talking about world wars, non proliferation, vetoes and the like just ignore. The real question is what about Ireland in a Biden NATO or post NATO much stronger EU military force?

    In a Biden NATO, the UK is held in check. NATO is dead after the Biden approach. Ireland playing a role in a much stronger EU? We are not capable of it as a society. We have been conditioned over generations to a pacifist non violent group mentality. We are anti nuclear. We are horrified by Ukraine choosing to fight and most of us I believe think Ukraine should have surrendered. Left wing and NGO and civil societies would have meltdown at any Irish involvement in Defence alliance.

    Realistically we will end up as a sort of half in half out of EU as it faces the post Biden future and half in half out of UK. That’s right. The current “building links” and shared island NGOs are the foundations for a much closer integration, even with the RAF defending the country and a secret Defence agreement never laid before the DÁIL.



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    #1797
    Irelandsnumberone
    Registered Users Posts: 648 ✭✭✭Irelandsnumberone


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119148180#Comment_119148180

    What film is this?



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    #1798
    indioblack
    Registered Users Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭indioblack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119148715#Comment_119148715

    According to your post the UK seems to be the biggest threat to Europe.

    "The Defence of the EU cannot be trusted to a third country, least of all to one as perfidious as the UK."?

    What part of "the defence of the EU" is reliant on Ireland?

    You can't even monitor your own territorial airspace.



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    #1799
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    We should be throwing ourselves at the feet of NATO and hoping to god they take us

    Of course, it would mean spending money on things that arent the HSE and the other money pits that FF and FG can dole out to access to for buy support



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    #1800
    Tonesjones
    Registered Users Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭Tonesjones


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119148682#Comment_119148682

    Stop the lights. As if a boat sailing in international waters is the same as a full scale invasion!

    We aren't joining and if that's the best argument then it should never be mentioned again



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    #1801
    BluePlanet
    Registered Users Posts: 2,358 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119149296#Comment_119149296

    What are you so afraid of?

    Didn't you get the memo?

    Russia is a paper tiger that's really crap at war, they have ageing equipment, poorly trained soldiers and a small train wreck of an economy.



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