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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,158 ✭✭✭Kaybaykwah


    Yes, thank you, because if there is one single aspect of the Western Culture that appeals to me, it’s the resort to shaming. I’m hooked.



  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's the corporatism bit to focus on as right-wing and the way it's being implemented isn't political, it's pure greed. But yeah, everything is set up for certain (types of) companies to flourish. Hell in America they're people now. 🤣

    I remember there used to be laws, quite conservative in nature (see? I like bits about both wings :P ) that put limits on anti-competitive practices. Well they still exist yet all of the companies at the top now (Apple a bit of an exception) got to where they got to by undercutting competitors or buying them out to wither on the vine and posting massive losses. Then once competitors are gone and the company has solidified its dominance a government fines them an inconsequential amount of money. The way the financial legal system is set up in America is mostly tripwires. Once in a while there'll be a sacrificial lamb or someone needs putting in his place.


    I was trying a bit of irony, seems it didn't land with ya which is fair enough.



  • Registered Users Posts: 79 ✭✭RYEL


    Is being a racist better than not being a racist no it is not.

    Does a statement like that make me a "leftist" and a liberal on boards. It would seem so.

    Apparently not hating other races and cultures is all it takes to be left wing on boards


    But then when you are arguing with posters who make statements like black culture is inherently Misogynistic and violent what do you expect I guess.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    I can't recall anyone calling you a leftist or liberal. I can't recall anyone saying being a racist is better. I can't recall anyone saying they hate other races. That's entirely in either A) your imagination and/or B) it suits you to believe this because answering direct questions is too difficult in defence of your politic, so it's far easier to deflect and invent racist boogymen, because you know accusations of racism is sure to shut down debate. A debate you don't want, or can't have in good faith or with a strong argument to make. Shout "racist!!" Job done.

    As for inherent misogyny, we're regularly told by "feminist" talking heads that Ireland(and the West at large) has a problem with "toxic masculinity", that Irish men have to take a long hard look at themselves in the wake of terrible events like murderous attacks on Irish women, including our minister for justice egging this on. Until it turned out the perp wasn't Irish, then a remarkable silence descended... You will find far fewer such "feminist" sentiments beyond Western liberal democratic shores.

    The plain facts are; though there can always be improvements, Western Liberal democracies are the most free and equal societies on Earth. Not just with gender, but with sexuality too. Yet you take umbrage with the suggestion that "Black culture" might be inherently misogynistic? It certainly depends on which "Black culture" is involved, but those from developing nations tend to be overwhelmingly traditional in attitudes towards gender and sexuality. More likely to be religious too and the Abrahamic faiths are hardly hotbeds of gender equality or sexuality. Judging by the rapes and killings of women in Inida, HIndoism isn't up to much good either. Irish people are well aware that religion is well dodgy in many respects and we chucked that nonsense out. A 2008 survey of Nigerians in Ireland by the Immigrant Council of Ireland(now a dead link in wiki. Quell surprise...) found: However, they are strongly likely to feel that they do not have many values in common with Irish people. I do wonder which values might they be. I'd bet the farm feminism and Gay rights would be talking points.

    South Africa? While there were some encouraging changes: The survey yielded some disturbing results. Whilst 8 out of every 10 people have not, nor would they ever consider, verbally or physically abusing someone who was gender non-conforming, over half a million South Africans have physically harmed either men or women seen to be ‘dressing and behaving like the opposite sex’ within the last year. According to the report, the most compelling explanations of gender based violence point to gender inequality and the prevalence of strong patriarchal norms and values.

    "Multicultural" America? The proportion of African Americans who indicated that homosexuality was “always wrong” was 72.3% in 2008, largely unchanged since the 1970s. In contrast, among white respondents, this figure declined from 70.8% in 1973 to 51.6% in 2008, with most change occurring since the early 1990s. Participants who knew a gay person were less likely to have negative attitudes toward homosexuality (RR=0.60, 95% CI: 0.52–0.69). Among MSM, twice as many African American MSM reported that homosexuality is “always wrong” compared to white MSM (57.1% vs. 26.8%, p=0.003).

    These are very consistent differences in attitudes across different cultures including the "melting pots". But nothing to see here of course.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 79 ✭✭RYEL


    You're all about the racial divide wibbs absolutely love it don't you. What about those same statistics along income lines?

    Are poorer communities more likely to have negative perceptions to homsexuality.

    Even more simply put are poorer people more likely to have conservative beliefs?

    DING!

    Our survey says yes!


    But no let's look at the race angle first.

    What we're those tags on thread again Tom?

    Ps. Are black cultures inherently misogynistic and violent?



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I was trying a bit of irony, seems it didn't land with ya which is fair enough.

    There was a time, long ago, when I could identify irony.. that day is long gone. The sheer stupidity I have seen posted online has burned the ability to distinguish it out of me. I can still do subtle sometimes, but Irony is one of those things that the PC and woke crowd killed. Along with common sense.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    In multicultural societies poor people are more likely to be people of colour. Multicultural societies import and reinforce an underclass and mores out of step with the host societies along racial lines. There isn't a single one in the West that doesn't. Among all the different host cultures, among all the different politics, among all the different pasts, imperial or not, among all the different "solutions" to this problem. Not one. Including Ireland in just a couple of decades. My point(s) still stand. The results are the same.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Because a thing is hard is not a reason not to do it



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results."

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 79 ✭✭RYEL


    Sum up your point there wibbs will ya cause I haven't a clue what it is.

    Is it about different races not being able to live together or something?

    Ps. Are black cultures inherently misogynistic and violent?

    Post edited by RYEL on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 79 ✭✭RYEL


    Isn't doing the same thing over and over again exactly what science is all about.

    What are they crashing particles against each other over and over again in cern for, is it insanity they are looking for?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    as good a reason as any to change the DP system, which they are doing, thankfully



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Are you annoyed because he's not a criminal or something? Thats what a lot of posters do here - wheel out stories about foreign criminals which even Klaz pointed out was racist. Seems like positive achievements annoy.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Ignoring the point entirely. Again. Every single Western European nation has different processes for migration, some have DP style, some don't. Casting the net wider in the Western multicultural world the processes vary all over the place. And in every single one the exact same trends are in play in the community.

    But yeah, keep plugging away at rearranging the deck chairs, hoping this time it'll be different. If the same trends don't repeat themselves here we will literally be the only nation on the planet where this is not the case.

    No. That's not what "science is all about". 🤦‍♂️

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,920 ✭✭✭Cordell


    So while I'm recognizing his success and his hard work and dedication you still can perform some silly mental gymnastics as to twist my post into something that you can interpret as me being annoyed by his success. It must be so difficult to be constantly looking for hidden racism and something-phobia and to be permanently offended.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,462 ✭✭✭rgossip30




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,462 ✭✭✭rgossip30



    I expect this will become the norm in many towns amazing how houses can be suddenly be built . They will be staying !!

    https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/irish-village-tries-stop-refugee-27123456?fbclid=IwAR12tMKrIE-lFFJmcgGSlA0ix-jCMp1BW27xZVAc-_57Yh6IYn1LKohd-0I



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭golondrinas


    BLM matter White Girls not so much. Ref Mason Greenwood , allegedly.


    Greenwood taking the knee such sickening hypocrisy



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Well it shows what can be done when the political will and our political class's desperate need to get an international pat on the back is in play. It will also hopefully put pressure on them to do the same for Irish people. Hopefully. Plus in this case the usual loudhailers can't screech "racism!!".

    Possibly, or jus someone who has bought into this sociopolitical "faith" hook, line and sinker. Like I said earlier it's one of Western society's Accepted Truths. Absorbed secondhand with little teasing out of the "truth" it actually represents, while concentrating on what positives there are and judiciously avoiding the negatives which have proven to be many. Not least for those people who can't "fit in" so easily, or are kept out.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Essentially yes. Not just "races", cultures too. The history of the human species demonstrates this at every turn. Even the most succesful "multicultural" societies in history have been based on conquest and imperialism and in every case the host culture was paramount and minority cultures within only gained traction by essentially "passing for" the locals and it took time.

    PS: Compared to White Western Liberal democratic nations and cultures, yes. Not just Black cultures. The Western liberal democracies are by most metrics the least misogynistic and violent.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    Some 4,500 people have applied for protection here since January 1, against a projected estimate of 3,500, meaning that applicants have outstripped predictions by almost 30% in the first five months of the year alone.

    Those are insane numbers. It's not a reach to say that Ireland, with mass inflation, a suffering health service and a housing crisis, have added at least 40,000 new people to our already burdened system. This is governmental insanity in its purest form.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    In their proper context, they’re really not insane at all. In the context you’re attempting to put them in, as though ‘application’ means ‘habitually resident’, they’re not even close to the number of new people added to our system which is always burdened, by design.

    Just so far this year alone, the number of babies born in Ireland is over 31,000. That’s from January 2022, up to today. Our net migration is -12,000.

    https://countrymeters.info/en/Ireland

    Perspective like, rather than flying off into a panic every time you read an article in the media.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    Babies are born every year, people emigrate every year, those things have been the norm for most of our histroy, whereas an endless stream of immigration, which rises almost every year, isn't a norm, and must not be treated like one. "Panic" is completly just when it's a verifiable truth that our system is very near to breaking point.

    Down-players like yourself have been wrong about nearly every judgment that you've made through the years about immigration, so I'll not be listening to your words of caution, as they are nothing but a danger to us all. Even if Ireland was in complete ruins, you'd still try and tell people that it's all fine, and that they don't need to panic. There's no cut off point for people like you, you'll never admit how wrong you were no matter how obvious it becomes.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,168 ✭✭✭Patrick2010


    Brilliant, 151 DP contracts handed out without proper tenders, people who have friends in high places? 91 million!!!


    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40861496.html

    The head of the Department of Justice has said “I simply don’t have any information” regarding the fact it paid out more than €91m in direct provision contracts in breach of public spending laws.

    Oonagh McPhillips, the department’s secretary general, told the Public Accounts Committee on Thursday that the direct provision “brief has moved bag and baggage”. 

    We’re not placing those contracts anymore, we don’t have the responsibility anymore,” she said.

    The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth assumed overall responsibility for the running of the direct provision system in October 2020 from the Department of Justice.

    It found that €91m worth of direct provision contracts awarded by its predecessor to commercial accommodation providers breached public expenditure law as the deals were awarded without a full e-tenders process.

    E-tenders is the State portal by which private companies and individuals bid for public contracts.

    The money in question relates to 151 separate contracts.

    “When we had the responsibility, we dealt with it the way we dealt with it,” she told Sinn Fein’s Matt Carthy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I had no words of caution, nor have I ever made any claims about immigration that have been proven wrong. You’re attempting to associate me with a group of people whom you have identified, to which I don’t belong.

    The point I’m making is that your point about adding 4,500 people to the Irish population is meaningless without context. We add over 50,000 people to the system every year, and that’s even before we get to talking about migration. That’s plenty of room in the system for 4,500 people, just as there was back in 2015 when the Irish Government pledged to take in 4,000 refugees, and couldn’t get them -

    https://www.thejournal.ie/cabinet-meeting-refugee-migrants-2322044-Sep2015/?amp=1


    Rising immigration figures have been the norm in Ireland since the mid-80’s -

    https://knoema.com/atlas/Ireland/topics/Demographics/Population/Net-migration-rate?mode=amp


    Rising numbers of asylum seekers has been the norm in Ireland since the mid-90’s -



    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/IRL/ireland/refugee-statistics


    The Irish system isn’t anywhere near the nebulous and vague “breaking point”, let alone the same media you criticise for not being critical of immigration, publishing nonsense and framing it in terms of the latest “crisis”, when most people simply aren’t impacted by the latest “crisis” at all.

    That’s the reason anyone struggles to take your doom and gloom prophesies seriously, because it’s just spin, empty rhetoric, patently obvious feigned concern for anyone other than yourself. It’s why I couldn’t care less whether or not anything I say meets with your approval. You’re attempting to whip up an oul’ moral panic there and the thing is, you can’t base it on reality, because reality doesn’t even come close to your myopic painting of a dystopian future for Irish society based upon the evidence you’re attempting to support your claims with.

    Rather than the black and white nonsense of “right” and “wrong”, reality is a great deal more nuanced than your simplistic narratives with which you’re making all sorts of Nostradamus style predictions for the future of Irish society, when in reality it’s simply a fact that Irish society was never reflected in your romanticised nonsense in the first place.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭Luxembourgo


    I do get where you are coming from the numbers in the context are small but we have a housing crisis, rental shortage and seemingly massive hotel shortage/inflated prices.

    We can't accommodate people in the country, it's a large factor in people leaving, let alone bring more in. It's crazy the 40k etc talked about by English.



  • Registered Users Posts: 79 ✭✭RYEL


    So humans of different races are so different we can't share the same space. That's the world some people want to live in.

    If elected president of the world wibbs how would you solve the problem. Do we pick a country for each race and send them there or just kill the ones in the wrong place. How does your mind envisage a solution?

    What about children of mixed race what do we do with them?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Thing is though, there's ALWAYS some kind of "crisis". There always has been, and there always will be.

    But these things pass, they always do. Think back to the mass unemployment following the crash, to where we are now with a lot of places struggling to get staff.

    Health care, yeah, thats always going to be a basketcase regardless of how much you throw at it.

    Housing, this time there's not enough or its too expensive, a decade ago it was too much and negative equity.

    Swings and roundabouts.

    None of these are reason enough to stop doing X, Y or Z.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,920 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Thing is though, there's ALWAYS some kind of "crisis" [...] But these things pass, they always do

    Hospital trolley crisis if feking refusing to pass, any idea when it may finally do it? Will it pass on its own, as crises usually do in lala land, or it will need someone to consider there are reasons enough to do something about it?



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