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Bullying and scam-artistry, is learning to manage these the basis of good leadership in society?

  • 02-06-2022 10:58pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭


    Not strictly an immediate current affair, per se.

    But definitely a point of view on a potentially serious and controversial topic, that unquestionably affects current affairs, society, and I believe is responsible for the determination of matters of national policy and police-work/enforcement-of-law.

    It may not even compute for how many view things, but I was considering, how you get people to "do" things.

    People management, in a sense. Situational management.

    When some people speak, you listen, and take orders from them well. In some cases are happy to do so.

    Others you may think, "pffff, jog on you incompetent".

    Thinking of many male leaders, being assertive is just a given. But it goes beyond being assertive, you have to know there's ramifications if assertions aren't complied with.

    ......

    What it all boils down to is, how we feel, determines how we act or re-act.

    That is to say, the emotional affect others have on us, determines how we respond to them (cognitive science 1.0.1., or if anyone has experience with CBT, cognitive behaviour therapy, you'll know first lesson is emotions -> determine actions).

    So what I'm saying is, two behavioral characterizations that have the most acute, lasting and potentially devastating emotional affect on others are

    1) to bully them

    2) to scam them

    If you think back to your school days, the "cool" kids, or the kids that others respected/were-afraid-of, did their behavior encapsulate elements of either of these?

    Was there a bully side to them, or were they known for scam-artist related behavior, or a mix of both?

    This extended into adulthood, what makes a quality leader? Someone who encapsulates elements of these characteristics thus can exhibit powerful influence?

    Or someone particularly adept at managing them, developing the character to effortlessly contend with bullying/scam-artistry, whilst exhibiting a more positive and productive outcome?

    In physics we trust....... (as insanely difficult to decipher as it may be)

    Post edited by Sugar_Rush on


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Sugar_Rush


    Think of some of the most heinous autocracy and dictatorships in recent history.

    Don't have to look to far.

    Russia's invasion of Ukraine has been almost universally characterized by democratic leaders as "bullying".

    And I think Put-in's behavior before and during his illegal invasion unquestionably presents some nasty elements of scam artistry........ "oh, we're di-Nazi'fying your country...... now excuse us whilst our army plunders and violates your citizens, women and children...... but we're doing it in the name of righteousness...... I swear!"

    Idi Amin, the butcher of Uganda. The epitome of a bully.

    etc.

    In physics we trust....... (as insanely difficult to decipher as it may be)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,396 ✭✭✭corner of hells




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Sugar_Rush


    I figured such an intellectually challenging topic would be more approachable being broken into bite-size pieces.

    In physics we trust....... (as insanely difficult to decipher as it may be)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    bullying is calling someone fat or excluding them from lunch.


    what is happening in Ukraine is war crimes…with the amount increasing on a daily basis.



    https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3498235-ireland-recognizes-russias-crimes-as-genocide-against-ukrainian-people.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    Your op reads like gibberish you'd write if you're stoned



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Sugar_Rush


    The mechanics of the universe operate on a high level of abstraction relative to the day to day intellectual complexity of the average human thought process.

    In physics we trust....... (as insanely difficult to decipher as it may be)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Sugar_Rush


    Civilization (the basis of life quality) is the counter measure to degeneracy.

    Those who go through their entire lives using bullying and scam-artistry to profit, are degenerates.

    But the reality is, many do it and do quite well.

    Basically being maggots off the backs of genuine contributing folk.

    .....

    So, to manage a bully = one must out bully them.

    To manage a scam artist = one must out scam-artist them.

    But precluding degeneracy = the means and outcome must ultimately lend itself to productivity/well-being.

    ......

    So riddle me that, my learned "Current Affairs/IMHO" minds!?

    In physics we trust....... (as insanely difficult to decipher as it may be)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    Look no further than the Tory front bench for scammers and bullies

    Not sure I follow your queries probably cos your IQ is so high



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Sugar_Rush


    Look no further than the Tory front bench for scammers and bullies

    Examples? (what behavior do they exhibit that meets such criteria).

    Not sure I follow your queries probably cos your IQ is so high

    What part are you struggling with specifically?

    In physics we trust....... (as insanely difficult to decipher as it may be)



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 23,855 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    Mod - This is not a CA, moved to AH



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    What exactly is your point?

    just for reference Idi amin’s death toll is estimated between 80,000 and 300,000.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,097 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    You'd need to be on DMT to follow the OPs posts, I wouldn't worry about it ;)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The mark of effective manipulation is that the other person is completely unaware that they are being manipulated. Whether it's based on marketing, behavioural science, NLP, social dynamics, sales techniques or whatever.

    Your vision is too limited.

    Bullying is clumsy and generally creates resistance. That's bad because your ideas aren't being accepted, and without acceptance, you'll never assume any kind of authority in the situation.

    Same with scam, because scamming is based on a lie. The whole message/communication is tarnished from the beginning by that lie, and so, your ability to convince others has an expiry date. Especially nowadays that people are more aware of scams, and trickery whether it's the media, the politicians, or mainstream advertising, people are far more aware of emotional manipulation, and the techniques used to anchor emotions to particular actions or verbal cues.

    People management is a completely different scenario because ultimately the believe is rooted in improving the capabilities of that other person, and most recipients are aware of that, so there's less resistance to external beliefs. General management is different but operates under many of the same limitations.

    Although, I'd recommend that you don't lean so heavily on psychological science to reinforce your beliefs on the topic. Psychology, in spite of it's general acceptance in society, isn't as reliable as people want to make it out to be. It forces categorisation on to others, through the assumption of authority, but it's still somewhat iffy as to the consequences. Many psychologists end up creating a self-fulfilling prophecy when identifying and treating others "problems".

    So.. honestly, I'd direct you to the 80s/90s aspects of social programming, marketing theory related to market/behavioural science, and some of the videos by Richard Bandler (not because he's perfect, but because he had some amazing insights into how people interacted with each other, and how a person could step into those interactions). NLP has a lot of flaws, as does all techniques/belief systems, but it's pretty good at identifying behaviours and how to manage them. But as with all such things, it's best to take a little from everything, and not focus on any one methodology.

    Because from your post, you seem rather scattered, meshing scenarios together even though what happens and how it happens is unrelated.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    If I’m reading the OP correctly his/her’s thesis is that any dictator e.g is a bully or a scam artist whose speeches/policies either bullies their followers into committing heinous acts. The reason for this is either pure bullying (manipulation) or by scamming them with a particular outcome. Not really anything groundbreaking.


    take hitter

    bin laden

    and now putin

    But the word bully is a bit of a stretch.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ahh I guess I misunderstood. I though he was referring in his OP to general manipulation/bullying/scamming others, so the effect of emotions on communication.

    Hmm. Ah well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    Honestly, my interpretation was trying to give the benefit of the doubt and looking for a reason for the post. But my background is war crimes and law of armed conflict and to classify people like amin, kony and putin as bullies is bizarre to say the least.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    One aspect of the corporate ideology that has taken over a lot of the western world the last 20 years is this push towards leadership..

    Surely being a leader is the last thing you should be?..When you have foresight, wisdom etc..

    What you see now is a load of narcissistic idiots running around going "I'm a leader.."

    I dunno is it a way of getting people to push themselves to work more?..(It does seem to have grown out of the corporate world..)

    Like, A lot of our current problems are down to being led by midwits..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    This cult of the leader is a strange one

    It's like we need a father figure to tell us how it is



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    Is it not a bit of a cop out to call support of heinous leader or indeed a regime a cult. Take for example Russia’s support of the current Ukrainian war stands at over 55%. Even worse is a similar amount of US support of Israel in Palestine. Not really a cult where it’s members are completely manipulated in a control setting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    Leaders are dangerous anyhow



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    Leaders are not per se dangerous. Dangerous leaders can be.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Not really. It's culture, and the forming of the mob that is dangerous, because then leaders can tap into the emotional current that leads the mob mentality towards certain excessive acts. Emotion over sound logic. Whenever we see dangerous leaders come into power, and exercise that power, it's due to the national culture that enables their position as being unassailable, unquestionable, etc. usually leading to others, the enemy, being classed as inferior or a threat of some manner. Emotion over logic.

    Leaders assume power that is given to them by others. So we should be considering the others that enable the dangerous leaders to be dangerous. Without them, the leader becomes just another voice in the background, easily ignored or dismissed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    The office of leader is dangerous because of the power it bestows in some cases



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    And yet, they're necessary because committees without leaders never manage to do anything. Groups and biases form.. usually leading to paralysis. Leaders are a requirement in any system created/maintained by humans, and the abuse of power through that position is inevitable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    But the vast majority of leaders are not dangerous so the office itself is not dangerous. Equally it is clear that a leader is not as powerful as people think.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    Would you rank the office of prime minister here and president of Russia as equally dangerous

    A dangerous man here won't start WW3



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    But in any case it would be great if we understood exactly what the OP is discussing. There is a huge difference between a leader of a body corporate and war criminals like putin, amin or kony. So to discuss leaders behaviours and actions legitimately it needs to be scoped out what the playing field is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,088 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    Well firstly, what do you mean by here? We don’t have a prime minister. But if you mean Taoiseach, then no, he is not as dangerous.

    what is your point?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,580 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly


    Is there a tl;dr?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    I've speedread the ops posts a couple of times now not sure I want to read them at slow pace

    It's hard to define exactly what's he's on about , something to do with the characteristics of people being led or some other such nonsense



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