Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

Sure. They violated the territorial integrity of another country. Was the US invasion of Iraq illegal? Same thing.

It's suspect it's a childish "gotcha" trick. I believe that memorandum wasn't "legally binding", so they'll start screeching that it wasn't "illegal", despite the annexation breaching UN charter, OSCE principles, the Ukrainian constitution, assurances in the international system and so on.

I tend to see everything with my own eyes. At least that way I can say something for sure.

1. Who could give a guarantee that EU/OSCE authorities would do that fairly? Do you know how OSCE authorities did their job in Donbas/Lugansk regions in 2014-2021 years? Seems they simply didn't document all these crimes made by the Ukrainian army these days, as we see - no Europeans are aware of that.

2. But we have 3 friend-families in Donbas and Lugansk regions, we were calling them all these 8 years. And all these 8 years they were hiding in basements from time to time because there was shooting. There was no normal life. There's a generation of kids who have grown up there in the last 8 years, and for whom it's "normal" to hide in basements. Did OSCE or EU gov tell you about this? Did you see video reports from these places? No EU news would tell you about this. All these 8 years EU people just heard on the news about how was it unfair to "annex" Crimea, and about separatists in the East of Ukraine. And only for that, most of Eastern Ukrainians are very happy about this Russian "military operation" (though this is not just an "operation", this is a huge war for sure) - because they finally got free.

3. I've been in Crimea for 2 weeks with my friends in 2014, the year when Crimea was "annexed". We were traveling and asked lots of local people by the way what they think about becoming a part of Russia. Around 30 people from different areas - starting from taxi drivers, to people working in local cafes, beaches, even just on the streets when we were walking around. Surprisingly ALL of them said they were happy. We couldn't find even one who would say anything against it. It sounded like a relief for them. We saw this old Crimea infrastructure - it was poor and mostly very old, as seems the Ukrainian gov didn't care about that region. I know, it's a private opinion, and it's only 30 people. But for us, it was pretty convincing.

Your post is, as the great Irish statesman, John Hume, described similar language, nothing other than "whataboutery".

"What about this, what about that?"

The salient point is that any votes taken in the illegally occupied areas of Ukraine by russian stooges, are null and void.

They are null and void because:

1. The votes were not free and fair, nor were they supervised by any reliable independent body.

2. The votes were taken in the immediate aftermath of military incursions and bloody fighting, essentially a coup-d'etat, in each case.

Sorry I don't know anything about weapons either, so you'll have to look to someone else to answer that - all I know is it was/is Germany's main tank, kind of like the UKs Challenger tank. As a non expert I'd guess how they'd compare to those old Soviet tanks might depend on how new they are, exactly what "model" etc. I haven't read about what you are referring to I'm afraid (Spain intending to send tanks).

I'm not trying to disparage anything or anyone. I'm telling you stories from me and my friends, the people whom I personally know. If you saw what I wrote: if OSCE and EU gov made fair judgments, why then in EU is nobody aware of what is really happened in Ukraine during all these 8 years, what my East Ukrainian friends were experiencing? If it wasn't told in western media or by OSCE, then how can we trust those representatives?

Also, why do think there were no independent supervisors? Are you sure at all? Who told you about that?

If you believe the votes were not free and unfair, then why did so many people across the Crimea say to me and my friends they're happy to become a part of Russia? I don't want to come up with answers, just telling you my questions.

I strongly believe: that you can't find the truth just by what the media says to you. Even monitoring media from both sides, I'm coming to a conclusion - both sides are lying. So I'm not inclined to support any side of the situation. As I said, I tend to have my own experience, to avoid being a "couch military expert".

And finally, and again: have you ever been to Ukraine? Did you see those people?

On point No.3, how many people in Crimea would be okay with Russia invading the whole of Ukraine, bombing Kyiv, destroying Mariupol and killing 20k civilians there, Bucha, Irpin, Hostomel etc? People in Crimea will have to live for decades with the undoubted fallout of the Putin regime behaving in such a destructive fashion.

You speak as if Russia invading a country of 44m people is a perfectly normal and reasonable response to people in Crimea wishing to live under Putin.

No, I don't concede. In my opinion, everything was good and even better than could be.

And here's why.

1. There WAS A LOT of independent monitoring, from different countries, including journalists. More, there were a lot of those who BOYCOTED this monitoring. Some countries simply DIDN'T WANT to know the truth.

Just look for journalist reports like this (use Google Translate to read please): https://krylov.livejournal.com/3244969.html

2. Because of such things as "boycotted monitoring" I can say - it's obviously there's no such thing as "independent monitoring". Only journalists at best, but not gov representatives. Because what country's representatives can you imagine as "independent representatives"? US? UK? Germany? Australia? India? China?

If we're considering any powerful gov representative, then they simply can't be independent - obviously, any of them has its own interest. If we're considering smaller countries, they obviously depend on the opinion of bigger ones. So what can we treat as "independent monitoring"?

Sorry for my bad humor, but in that case, I can imagine only "Extraterrestrial monitoring".

Also, just for a second, pay attention: where did you hear this word combination "independently monitored"? I bet - in media, where else. They've told you, you have to use these words in such discussions like this. Well, it may work to some extent, but if you would think about the people (not governmental business and formalities), then you'd agree with me - there's no such thing. The only opinion that is important here - is the opinion of the people who live in that place.

I can also speculate why did Russian gov used militaries, why they didn't let western representatives take part in that etc. But if you have such questions - just put them on your head. E.g., imagine if someone would decide to lead a referendum in Northern Ireland to get merged with the Republic of Ireland, and say, Russia had an interest in that. Would you let the Russian government representatives come to "independently monitor" this voting?..

3. We can talk about international formalities (which AFAIK were broken many times by many countries such as US, UK, EU, Russia, ...), but truly I'm not an expert in that at all (neither you do - I bet). Thank God!

So I prefer to talk about people. This is what it's all about, right? People's lives, their families, work, business, etc. That's what is important. Isn't it?

So then, if we're talking about people - ask people. Democracy? Here it is. Not only referendum, but I asked them personally. I heard all these speculations on western radio and TV about "unfair" and "not free" votes. But I have talked to people who live in Crimea - what do I need else? I also asked them if they were forced to go to vote. If someone showed them a gun to go for a vote. Nope! They were running to vote because they really wanted that, and because finally at least they were asked.

Ask them yourself.

So my conclusion - everything was free and fair. I.M.H.O.

Did I answer your questions?

And would you finally answer mine, please?

Have you talked to Ukrainian people? Have you ever been to Ukraine? Do you have at least friends, relatives there?

With respect?.. You haven't answered a single my question and tried to devalue my arguments by hiding behind citations and sayings. :)

Well, it's up to you. Rely on gov media, and don't verify all that media says to you.

God bless you.

You have provided absolutely nothing verifiable at all.

I could just as well say "well, I've been to Ukraine and Crimea twice a day since 1990 and 90% of my friends are not happy Russia invaded".

There you go, refuted.

Wow, reading this thread you wouldn't think the largest war on European soil since World War 2 is occurring.

Anyway, back to reality, when Russia isn't blockading Ukrainian grain or stealing Ukrainian grain and selling it, they are simply destroying it. This isn't just a war of colonisation, but one fuelled by a desire to destroy Ukraine.