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attic conversion not certified

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,045 ✭✭✭Bio Mech


    We did have a cert from the time the conversion was actually done but the person who signed off on the cert wasnt qualified to according to the buyers surveyor. With the qualified engineers cert it was sorted and moved on quickly. I actually called and had a chat with the buyers surveyor and he confirmed he would be happy once the cert was applied. He seemed unconcerned that there was a bed there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    You missed this.


    It is as plain as the nose on your face what happened. The chickens are coming home to roost in the fire-trap attic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    The all knowing -all seeing Claw Hammer graces us with his wisdom



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,724 ✭✭✭zg3409


    3 issues


    Fire safety, does the "bedroom" meet all fire regulations. This may be impossible such as stairs width, low windows for escape etc.


    Can it be called a bedroom due to roof height, even if fire compliant it can't be called a bedroom unless roof height and whatever else is met.


    Structurally safe, were steel beams used during the conversion process, as in is there a risk of the whole roof collapsing in an extreme storm. Most engineers will not sign off without steel beams.


    Typically in these the room is never advertised as a bedroom and never certified as a bedroom as it can't be. It gets certified as a store room and from a fire safety point of view no one should sleep in the room overnight.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    You can be damn sure it does not. If it did the o/p would be ranting about it.

    It is a death trap, but then some people regard death traps as bureaucracy gone mad.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    my own surveyor was over there last Saturday as my own solicitor wanted the place certified , he told me the stairs up to the attic from the first floor is too narrow , more importantly the floor to ceiling height is 50 mm shy of minimum spec ( 2400 ) , he just worded the cert in such a way that the attic is to be used exclusively for storage , the deal was negotiated on the basis of it being a three bed anyway , surveyor did tell me he thought it would not be worth fixing the issues as too costly to convert attic to correct spec which would allow it to be officially classed as a fourth bedroom

    velux window was also installed without planning but the seven year role gets us off the hook there

    just a case of what the buyer decides to do now , nothing arose which is a stonewall obstacle to a bank approving mortgage



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    The moral of the story is that you should have found all of those issue before you bought yourself. The 7 year old rule is not a complete get out. It stops enforcement but it remains an illegal development.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    there you go again inventing concerns and pretend regrets that nobody has



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,514 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    My certify it as a 4th bedroom, it’s storage maybe an office/yoga room . What the new owners do with it is there issue



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    There you go again ignoring the elephant in the "bed" room.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    house is certified and attic is noted as being only for storage , nothing unusual about such a report , sale negotiated on the basis of it being a three bed in the first place , you know this already but seeing as you enjoy this kind of thing , crack on



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,307 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    He’s correct about the illegal Velux though.

    Just because it’s an unenforceable item from Planning Enforcement, it’s still a breach that has the potential to stop a sale.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    numerous things can stop a sale depending on how orthodox either the buyer , solicitor or bank are , a velux window which is installed more than seven years is better than one that was installed four years ago without planning , thats a fact , besides , the window could be filled in again if push came to shove



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,307 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    The point is that the poster is correct. I only lodged a retention app on Thursday for a client for 2 Velux that were installed 13 years ago.

    Buyers Surveyor noticed and requested cert of compliance or exemption. Neither could be provided and buyer not happy buying someone else’s problems. Letter confirming no enforcement action was irrelevant.

    Im not complaining. Work is work.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    correct on the individual technical issues , no bearing on overall result , no one can be forced to buy anything but if this party dont buy , another will , nothing here is a categorical obstacle to a sale



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,650 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    In the case of mortgage approval, that's for the bank and solicitors to decide. The bank may decide not to release the funds until any and all legal issues (such as unauthorised development) has been rectified. That is a categorical obstacle to a sale.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    What is ?, the velux window, seven year rule applies



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,650 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    The seven year rule means planning cannot take enforcement actions against the unauthorised development, it does not mean that it has planning. It remains an unauthorised development. Therefore regardless of the seven year rule, the bank may see it as an outstanding legal issue that they want rectified before they release funds.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    The bank might, its by no means certain, il fill in the window if need be I'm not that bothered if the sale falls through, I bought it relatively cheap



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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,650 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Whoever is buying the house is likely to have to get a surveyor's report for the bank. Any legal or building regs issues raised in that report are things the bank may decide to refuse to provide a mortgage for. Regardless of the velux, a converted attic which does not comply with building regulations is something the bank may decide not to provide a mortgage for. At the very least they're likely to request certification for the works so in the event something goes wrong, they have legal recourse against someone.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Attic is for storage, not being sold as a four bed



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,650 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    If the attic is deemed by the surveyor to constitute a habitable room (not bedroom, but a habitable room used for living purposes), then the same regulations apply including (but not limited to) fire protection of the stairs and hallways to the final exit.

    No surveyor is going to risk their insurances by not saying such in their report just because the house isn't being sold as a four-bed. If a room in the attic is a habitable room (which includes playrooms, offices, and any type of room an occupant is likely to spend a reasonable amount of time in on a regular basis), it's non-compliant with regulations. People do not spend the time, money or level of detail needed to create an attic conversion with stairs and velux windows, just for storage.

    Again, it will be up to the banks and solicitors to determine if they're happy to proceed with the sale or not.

    Your opinion on the matter is irrelevant (and I'm not saying that to be insulting or disparaging). The banks don't give a f*ck what a person uses a room for. They will only care about securing their investment through the mortgage. In the event there's an incident in the house and the insurance company could use the converted attic and lack of certification for same as a way to not pay out, that will affect the bank.

    So, if the attic has a habitable room (which going by your opening post there's an en-suite and enough space for bed(s) in the room which I'm guessing also means there's stairs up to the attic, plus the velux rooflights, and I would hope there's a sufficient level of insulation), even if the room is just filled with boxes and old Christmas decorations, a surveyor will say the attic contains a habitable room in their report, the solicitor will request certification based on the surveyor's report, and the bank is unlikely to provide a mortgage based on outstanding legal items raised by the solicitor.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,560 ✭✭✭tscul32


    But the fact that it hasn't got the required ceiling height means that it isn't classed as a habitable room, so how could a surveyor say it is. The op's own surveyor measured and said it isnt a habitable room. If it has to meet certain criteria to legally be classed as a habitable room, and it doesn't, then how could a surveyor declare that it is.

    The buyer's survey that started all this said it didn't meet the regs for a habitable room. But noone ever said it was, it was being sold as a 3 bed, not a 4 bed.

    My solicitor told me that a bank might have an issue with an unplanned dormer window (even if over 7 years cos still illegal), but if the LTV is low enough they may not see it as a high enough risk. Solicitor also said bank very unlikely to have an issue with an unplanned velux to rear as would usually come under exempted development.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,307 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    There’s no such thing as a 7 year rule!

    Its pub talk. In my example above the vendor had a letter from an Architect attempting to quote this “7 year rule” as a means for demonstrating compliance or unenforceable action.

    Rightly so, the Buyers surveyor queried it and thus the solicitor would not recommend the releasing of funds.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,307 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    2 different issues you’ve quoted.

    Dormer requires planning, Velux to rear don’t so I wouldn’t expect the bank to have an issue with the Velux.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    " no such thing as seven year rule " ?

    I must tell my surveyor he is engaging in " pub talk "



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,650 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    If the surveyor is going by Diagram 3 of TGD F, then I would challenge their opinion that it can't be classed as a habitable room due to head height. As per the regs:

    Ceiling height is one of a number of factors, which affects ventilation of habitable rooms. The suggested dimensions in Diagram 3 are consistent with good room design, the use of standard materials and good building practice.

    Again, the installation of stairs, velux rooflights, sanitary facilities and the structural and finishes costs of all that would highly suggest the intention of the conversion was to use the room as a habitable room.

    Depending on how far out the head height is from Diagram 3, chances are most surveyors (myself included) would deem it to be a habitable room and would note it as such in a report. Some may see it differently, but there appears to be far more justification for calling it a habitable room than not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,560 ✭✭✭tscul32


    My understanding - After 7 years you won't be required to undo the work. But it's still unauthorised and means it's not a clean title.

    @Gumbo that's why I said the bank "might" have a problem with a dormer, but it's not a given that they would refuse a mortgage because of it. Only if they see it as a high risk to them getting their money back.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Blame someone else for your problems. It was the fault of the auctioneer who sold the house that the room was described as a bedroom and now it is the fault of the surveyors who describe it as a bedroom. The house is not being sold minus the attic. It is one planning unit so it can't be certified any more than a woman can be a bit pregnant.

    Trouble comes cheap but goes away dear.



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