Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

SomewhereInTheMiddle · 05-06-2022 3:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119161413#Comment_119161413

With respect?.. You haven't answered a single my question and tried to devalue my arguments by hiding behind citations and sayings. :)

Well, it's up to you. Rely on gov media, and don't verify all that media says to you.

God bless you.

SomewhereInTheMiddle · 05-06-2022 3:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119161106#Comment_119161106

Sorry if my comment sounded like that. It was related to the question about the "annexation" of Crimea.

And I'm not saying that this war is "normal". This is TOTALLY NOT NORMAL.

This is totally not normal as any other war, like in Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, ... - in any country actually. And I'd be happy if we'd seen flags of those countries in European/American streets/football stadiums and other places too when these invasions happened.

But this didn't happen.

And now, when the war happens closer to Europe - what happened? Now it's scary! Like our people more important than Syrian or Afghan :(

Sorry for this negative note, but there's a lot of hypocrisy. Especially in media.

Detritus70 · 05-06-2022 3:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119160942#Comment_119160942

You have provided absolutely nothing verifiable at all.

I could just as well say "well, I've been to Ukraine and Crimea twice a day since 1990 and 90% of my friends are not happy Russia invaded".

There you go, refuted.

SomewhereInTheMiddle · 05-06-2022 4:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119161582#Comment_119161582

What do you mean by "verifiable"? I'm a live person, with real people's feedback. Of course, you don't know who am I. But do you know who are media to whom people tend to believe?

Do you want me to provide you with video records? I didn't do any back in 2014 (I simply couldn't assume it would be useful like now! We had a vacation in Crimea).

But just see how many people are in the queue for Russian passports right now, in Melitopol, Luganskaya region, in the "occupied" part of Ukraine:

https://youtu.be/OK-6QicwAY8

(turn on translations in subtitles: Gear -> Subtitles -> Translate -> English).

So could we still say that all the Ukrainians are not happy to be merged with Russia? I can't. It doesn't mean, they're happy with war, no! But they're not heard by their government too!

P.S. I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm not inclined to any side of that process, and I hate this "Russian operation" in the sense that people are dying! I simply have friends and relatives there, that's why it's important for me.

Dohnjoe · 05-06-2022 4:30pm

Wow, reading this thread you wouldn't think the largest war on European soil since World War 2 is occurring.

Anyway, back to reality, when Russia isn't blockading Ukrainian grain or stealing Ukrainian grain and selling it, they are simply destroying it. This isn't just a war of colonisation, but one fuelled by a desire to destroy Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/AlexKhrebet/status/1533131423267397632

BurgerFace · 05-06-2022 4:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119160260#Comment_119160260

Yes they WERE invited. By the Crimeans. They refused stating that the semi autonomous region had no authority to invite them and that they had to be invited by Kiev. Kiev extended no such invitation. Why? What were they afraid of? That the vote might be judged fair and square? Surely if it it was suspected ahead of time that it was going to be a farce then prudence would have demanded the presence of the OSCE to substantiate this. Otherwise absent international observers it's very easy to claim impropriety and not have to provide proof.

BurgerFace · 05-06-2022 5:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119161049#Comment_119161049

Do you concede that it's possible to have a free and fair vote in the absence of the OSCE? The OSCE weren't blocked. The y weren't invited by Kiev. That right there tells me that Kiev had something to hide.

myfreespirit · 05-06-2022 5:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119161941#Comment_119161941

It is certainly impossible to any have free and fair vote wherever the current russian regime are in control. They are liars through and through. You can be certain everything they say is a lie.

BurgerFace · 05-06-2022 5:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119161766#Comment_119161766

The largest war since WW2? Did the Balkans War never happen?

Detritus70 · 05-06-2022 5:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119161745#Comment_119161745

You might be a live person, you could be genuine, but you could also be a teenager in his bedroom in Tallaght being "edgy" on the internet or someone being paid to spread Russian propaganda from a desk in Glavset. I don't know and I won't tell which of these options I consider most likely, though I have a very definite preference.

The same could be said about me. So anything you say, like everyone you asked in Crimea was happy with Russian annexation, simply can't be verified. And on that particular point I call bullsh*t in any case.

fly_agaric · 05-06-2022 6:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119162150#Comment_119162150

It's bigger than that now isn't it? (even if Russia was calling it a limited military operation to get some Nazis and disarm them, and what Russia says defines reality as we all know).

Also I think that is maybe the first time (not this one, in earlier post) I've seen you offer something close to what might be a truly held opinion there - "It doesn't matter now"!

Basically Russia/Putin had their fun (successfully grabbing some new land in Crimea + now as Putin hopes, extending the landgrabs massively with an invasion of Ukraine) and that's all that matters. The ends justify the means, when it is Russia.

All the other stuff angrily + righteously spouted in 100s of posts, about Iraq and Yemen etc., US or West's hypocrisy or lovely posts calling Western politicans "dildos" and "dicks" is really just chaff + noise intended to confuse + disorient any people foolish enough to listen/pay any attention!

odyssey06 · 05-06-2022 6:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119161849#Comment_119161849

Russia had no authority to hold the referendum. Why would Ukraine acquiesce in an illegal act?

So after Russia invaded Crimea with military force, a country known for the disappearance of journalists or those raising opposition voices, you think it was possible for there to be a proper debate in a free and open manner to those opposed to being annexed by Russia?

Either you're completely ignorant of world affairs or you think we are. Look up the definition of a Russian useful idiot - you're it.

The content of your posts represent utterly dishonest exercises in Russian propaganda.

Strazdas · 05-06-2022 6:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119161530#Comment_119161530

My point would be that the invasion of Ukraine by Russia makes things much, much worse for pro-Russian people and Russian separatists. They will have to live for decades with the knowledge that they backed a fascist invasion of Ukraine. Life can never be 'normal' for them, they will be living with the consequences of 2022 long after Putin is dead (witness what happened to the people of Sudetenland after WW2...throwing their weight behind Hitler and wishing to live under his rule turned out to be an utter catastrophe for them).

Pussyhands · 05-06-2022 6:59pm

Ukraine lose and do not go to the world Cup. Guess there will be no global show of support at the world Cup then.

Detritus70 · 05-06-2022 7:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119162441#Comment_119162441

See? No favouritism.

Don't know why you're complaining.

odyssey06 · 05-06-2022 7:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119162579#Comment_119162579

The opposite, they were robbed of a stonewall penalty (and the Wales keeper had the game of his life).

Pete_Cavan · 05-06-2022 8:03pm

It would be interesting to see support for joining/staying with Russia in Dombas and Crimea when they see billions in western aid pouring in to rebuild Ukraine and they could be part of a crippled Russian federation which neglected its outer regions even when it was relatively prosperous.

fash · 05-06-2022 8:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119161941#Comment_119161941

Do you concede that never in the entire history of Russia has it ever permitted a fair election?

Dohnjoe · 05-06-2022 8:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119162150#Comment_119162150

Much larger, and much more significant than the Balkans.

Not quite as large as the edgy contrarian attempts in this thread though.

Dohnjoe · 05-06-2022 9:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119161849#Comment_119161849

Crimea wasn't a member of the OSCE. Russia, which is a member, barred the OSCE then from entering Crimea. It was just all a show, a farce of course.

This is what Russia does, fake referendums to give something an air of legitimacy. Their supporters keenly defend these electoral parodies as real because they share the Kremlin's contempt for normal democratic process. The Russians are currently gearing up to hold them in occupied territory in Ukraine, if they can be bothered to go to the effort, they seem to be equally as happy to straight up brutally occupy Ukraine as the Wehrmacht did.

BurgerFace · 05-06-2022 10:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119162029#Comment_119162029

Well then it would have been very easy to validate your claim that Russians are genetically predisposed to speak nothing but lies by having inspectors present. No?

BurgerFace · 05-06-2022 11:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119162975#Comment_119162975

It's news to me that Russia barred the OCSE from observing the referendum. Can you provide proof of that claim? And secondly, why didn't Ukraine invite them? If you put the pieces together you come up with nothing but contradictions.

So the Crimeans never wanted to return to Russian control and were blocked from voting or forced to vote yes or be executed. The Crimeans requested OCSE presence which was refused on the grou ds that Crimea had no such authority. The Ukraine never invited OCSE to observe. The Russians, however, barred the OCSE, which was not invited?

Am I correct in assuming that that is what you are saying?

BurgerFace · 05-06-2022 11:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119162810#Comment_119162810

Well what's your definition of larger?

SomewhereInTheMiddle · 05-06-2022 11:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119162163#Comment_119162163

Woo...

Didn't know here's a lot of people who just want to say something rude, when they don't feel they want to check the arguments themselves. And especially when I provided them.

I thought that polite Irish people only want to know something from the first hand. I decided to share. Now I see what happens here. Thanks.

No, Mister. Your "level" of discussion doesn't even worth a penny of attention. Please bring yourself up first and apologise, then I could reply.

Regards.

Dohnjoe · 06-06-2022 12:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119163463#Comment_119163463

A lot of stuff is news to you. Russia barred the OCSE from entering Crimea. The OSCE were invited to Ukraine, and they went to Ukraine.

No contradictions there.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119163512#Comment_119163512

Larger.

Every petty pedantic inch, it's incredible.

BurgerFace · 06-06-2022 12:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119160260#Comment_119160260

They weren't invited by the Kiev regime. So by your own logic the claim that the vote was fraudulent is equally dubious.

It reminds me of that opening scene in the movie The Shawshank Redemption. A defendant is on trial for murder. He stated that he threw his gun in a river. The prosecutor asserts that the river was searched and no gun was found so it was very convenient that a ballistics comparison could not be conducted. The defendant states that it was decidedly inconvenient that the gun was not found since a ballistics comparison would have exxonerated him.

You are of the opinion that OCSE absence proves malfeasance. It does nothing of the sort. If the OCSE were present and could report no impropriety would you then accept the outcome? If everything was deemed above board and compliant would you stipulate?

BurgerFace · 06-06-2022 1:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119160260#Comment_119160260

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119162163#Comment_119162163

It would be extremely easy to put paid to that doubt, reticence and trepidation then, would it not? You could talk to some Crimeans or even go for a visit and make up your own mind.

Dohnjoe · 06-06-2022 1:29am

Another one.

https://twitter.com/WarMonitor3/status/1533478419282927621

Dohnjoe · 06-06-2022 1:30am

A very sure sign that Russia is having serious tank resupply issues, T64's spotted again

https://twitter.com/Militarylandnet/status/1533390817070665729

06-06-2022 2:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119160087#Comment_119160087

So BurgerFace do you admit it was illegal?

myfreespirit · 06-06-2022 8:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119163676#Comment_119163676

Another one indeed.

More power to the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

Alas, it won't be enough to deter the murderous russian war on civilians in Ukraine.

An opinion piece in The Observer yesterday was very hard-hitting about the mediocre Western support for Ukraine, essentially saying that the west is "hoping for some form of shabby compromise..." allowing Putin "to accept territory and immunity in return for halting the horror".

This could well be the hideous outcome of the terrible war, as others in the thread have forecast.

Looking at the map of Ukraine which are now under russian military occupation, it is hard to see them giving up this land grab. A bit pessimistic I know, but the omens are not good.

myfreespirit · 06-06-2022 8:21am

President Zelensky truly is an extraordinary leader, calm, courageous and determined in the face of an impossible trial facing his country and his people.

Cometh the hour, cometh the man.

In stark contrast to the coward hiding in the Kremlin, along with his sycophants like Peskov and Lavrov.

pixelburp · 06-06-2022 9:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119163889#Comment_119163889

To be fair, one doesn't just pivot to a war footing on a whim, especially if a country or countries are both scarred by historical wars (perhaps even THE war) and are not currently configured towards interventionism. Easy to dump on Germany but when their constitution literally exists as a response to its darkest stain, that doesn't just disappear overnight. Coupled with 50 years of kid gloves over a secretive nuclear power glowering in the corner; one doesn't just provoke Russia lightly.

We could be doing more, should be doing more and if the tide turns for Ukraine watch the sudden surge of weapons flow into the country - but I do get it to an extent.

bobowen · 06-06-2022 10:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119158874#Comment_119158874

It really wasn't as simple as that though was it. Before the BBC gave up on impartiality and joined the neo con party they reported on the influence of the far right and how they started the violence at Maidan. Here is a report from 2014.

https://youtu.be/mJhJ6hks0Jg

And here is Victoria Nuland caught discussing who America wants to place in charge after they kick out Yanukovich. She is still around working for Biden today.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-ukraine-tape-idUKBREA151VA20140207

McGiver · 06-06-2022 10:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119161849#Comment_119161849

STOP. These are all LIES. At this stage, I will report you again for support of illegal annexation and denial of facts.

Russia militarily occupied Crimea using soldiers without insignia and then collaborators organised "a referendum".

Using military units without insignia (especially when operating on a foreign territory) is banned by the Geneva Convention, by the way.

To make it look valid the Kremlin paid about 50 lunatics from Europe to act as "International observers". They were simply paid for acting just like you would pay the crowd in a film. They were no observers, specialists, experts, reputed or genuine representatives of the countries. They were all fringe irrelevant "politicians" from various extremists, fascist, authoritarian or populist movements/parties.

"Fake referendum at a gunpoint" is the most accurate description of this situation. It's as valid as a referendum staged by Mugabe, Hitler or other tinpot dictator.

You're talking nonsense and everyone knows it.

McGiver · 06-06-2022 10:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119163676#Comment_119163676

https://twitter.com/anders_aslund/status/1533523990312099845?t=GoGb5LIyu6856epYTLyrZw&s=19

14 and counting.

Russian regimes do not value life. They are like insects, their tactic is to swarm the enemy by numbers and ignore their own losses. Tactic used in WW2 which costed them millions of soldiers.

SomewhereInTheMiddle · 06-06-2022 10:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119163678#Comment_119163678

I'm sorry but that's ridiculous.

That's why I asked here if someone at least has been to Ukraine: there are no such road signs in Ukraine!

This is also ridiculous how you freely believe that the Russian army is poor and doesn't have a military. Just to be fair: the Russian military is the most modern in the world at the moment. Putin invested 2 trillion dollars in the Russian military in just recent times!

How do you imagine they could stand for so long if the West sends tons of weapons to Ukraine? Just because Russians are so smart and they're managing to stand with old tanks and weapons?..

It's funny already, isn't it?

So how in the world do you trust all these sources?!

Check all the sources before you trust them!

Dohnjoe · 06-06-2022 10:53am

Day in, day out, a fixation on destroying and nuking other countries. This is watched by a large portion of the Russian population

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1533537068802093058

McGiver · 06-06-2022 11:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164301#Comment_119164301

Yep, China is going to be the winner here.

Unless Russia is totally defeated and/or launches a nuclear/chemical warfare then China ends up with a vassal that it can internationally defend and support publicly (by lying if course).

Chinese cultural and economic influence will increase significantly in Siberian Russia. Lots of cheap resources available. They will build additional infrastructure to ship them as they do in East/South East Asia and East Africa. Siberian Russia becomes a Chinese puppet colony.

McGiver · 06-06-2022 11:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164373#Comment_119164373

Nonsense. Conspiracy theories. Revisionism.

pixelburp · 06-06-2022 11:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164301#Comment_119164301

It was interesting 'cos someone else tried to suggest Russia was doing well because China was still buying its oil and gas. But as you just pointed out, a pariah state doesn't have much leverage when the only customer wanders up to the table. And when that customer's China? Well yeah. The end-result is exactly what you have shared.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164436#Comment_119164436

I can't pin down why, but there's something about the format of those Russian "talk" shows that's a bit weird. They seem to be set up for polemics to just rant for 5 minutes while there's an audience of guests just dumbly watching like it's a game show.

The rhetoric is crazy though, for sure, though I'd be loathed to read too much into it. There are always going to be those that are all-in on the myth of Big Boy Russia in charge; no more than we have hardened Brexiteers across the water, I'm sure there are Russians who are clinging onto the idea that any minute now, the USSR will return and then we'll see who's boss.

Nody · 06-06-2022 11:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164422#Comment_119164422

Funny that; if the Russian army is "the worlds most modern army" how come it has failed so horribly in Ukraine against a country using their own discarded equipment from the 90s? And it's hilarious that you assume a stated investment in the military actually went to the military seeing how Russian kleptomancy is working at all levels in the country esp. in a state run organization.

bobowen · 06-06-2022 11:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164480#Comment_119164480

So you are saying the BBC and Reuters are conspiracy theorists and revisionists. Good to know.

McGiver · 06-06-2022 11:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164483#Comment_119164483

What we're seeing is essentially a demise of Russia as a significant regional power and ascendancy of China.

Even Turkey is a stronger regional power at this stage.

McGiver · 06-06-2022 11:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164436#Comment_119164436

Soloviev is a clown, nothing else. He doesn't mean it, it's a show.

He's Putin's close mate so he must have stolen $billions from the state money. His function is to keep the organised crime which is called "Russian government" going and keep the mass theft going by spouting all these hyped up propaganda pieces. He's a chief propagandist not by conviction but by $$$. Italians confiscated his villas there so he's pissed off 😎

McGiver · 06-06-2022 11:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164497#Comment_119164497

No, I'm saying your explanation of those programs are 😉 Give up pal, new account, few posts, we're watching.

pixelburp · 06-06-2022 11:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164501#Comment_119164501

Basically. Russia is dead and just doesn't know it. When Putin dies, all bets are off. In the meantime, he completely overplayed his hand; The West was "happy" to use Russian oil and gas, tut-tut every now and again when it jailed some gay people, Pussy Riot, or a political opponent - but otherwise pretend Russia was slowly modernising by degrees.

Now, it's a pariah nation, its economy is barely keeping its head afloat while China slowly leans them over a barrel. Their Big Strong army is being shown to be 30 years behind the curve, out-thought and out-manoeuvred. They're only keeping parity - parity! - because the EU is reluctant to send more weapons.

The ordinary people will suffer - are suffering - but we're in an interconnected age: the Russian internal firewall can only hold so much back before cracks show. Belarus showed how you can protest even when the law says you can't.

SomewhereInTheMiddle · 06-06-2022 11:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164494#Comment_119164494

The Russian army failed? Sorry, did Putin sign a capitulation bill?

Just for your information: All the Russian military technics have either "Z" or "V" signs on their boards. They did this purposely to eliminate the number of such fakes (but not only for that).

So the mentioned image from Twitter is just a 100% fake.

Again - check the sources before you trust them.

bobowen · 06-06-2022 11:29am

There it is. The classic go to response deployed whenever you can't refute anything in the post you were challenged on.

I used these western media links so that people like you can trust them. Its a shame you can't trust anything that doesn't fit your narrative even if the sources aren't Pro Russian.

Dohnjoe · 06-06-2022 11:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164422#Comment_119164422

The Russian military wouldn't be considered the most modern, that would be the US.

Putin invested 2 trillion dollars in the Russian military in just recent times!

Not sure whether this is parody, but can't find anywhere in your link where it reports that. The headline is that the world spent 2 trillion on military in recent times. You should take some of your own advice and check your sources. It also states the Ru military spent around 65 bn on their military in 2021, and that they decreased their spending from 2016 to 2019 (for reference the US spent 800 bn on their military in 2021)

In terms of using old resources (like the T-62)

Russia has lost at least 760 main battle tanks (visually confirmed), add about 20% to that figure to get closer to the real number, also factor in a vast amount of tanks that will be out of actions for normal wear and tear repairs. For perspective that's more tanks than the UK, France and several European countries own combined.

They have many tanks in deep storage but the state of these is highly questionable, with earlier reports indicating that tanks had been stripped of crucial components. It looks very likely they are using T-62's, the M variant. Not too far off the early T-72's. There's a couple of photos of them already with the usual markings, inc. one apparently broken down on Russian territory. Excellent fact-check on this below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCZU1XdNb_E

Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

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