Fall of the Catholic Church

How is it anything like your point? You introduced the idea of viability, the Department of Education has a different idea of viability than you do. Parents are not forced to enrol their children in schools which they do not wish their children to be enrolled in, and there are numerous alternatives available to them, all with differing degrees of viability depending upon their personal circumstances will require them to make in some cases significant sacrifices for their children’s education.

The only obligation the State places on parents is that their children receive a minimum standard of education, and whether or not their children are receiving a minimum standard of education is determined by an education welfare officer on behalf of Tusla on a case by case basis in accordance with the circumstances pertaining to each individual case -

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/attendance_and_discipline_in_schools/school_attendance.html

The provision in question is far from useless.

More utter rubbish.

The churches control schools but they do not fund them.

The fact that 94% of primary schools are religious, has no bearing on the fact that viable alternatives exist for 100% of parents, so this idea that parents have no viable alternatives is what’s nonsense. Parents just aren’t making the choices for their children’s education that you want them to make, and they’re not interested in lobbying Government on other parents behalf either. That’s what it comes down to.

Is it in the law that 94% of schools are catholic?

Feel free to point that piece of legislation out to me ... with a reference of course!

Yes, I brought up the article in response to your argument that parents have no choice. I was pointing out that they do. Then you made the point that the provision is irrelevant because it doesn’t include viable options, but that has nothing to do with that specific provision.

It’s why I quoted the whole of the Article to make the point that the State recognises that it is the family is primarily responsible for the education of their own children, and the State provides reasonable aid in support of that goal for the common good of society. I made the point before that, that it is the responsibility of the Department of Education to fund the provision of more schools in order to support parents who do not want a Catholic education for their children.

The Department of Education already sees it that the State is fulfilling it’s obligation by suggesting that as long as there are places in existing schools, they are not obligated to provide funding for more schools. I don’t think it’s reasonable that anyone would claim they didn’t know that Catholic schools provide education in accordance with Catholic ethos, unless they’d been living under a rock for the last 20 years and hadn’t been through the education system themselves, or they were new to the country and weren’t aware that the majority of schools in Ireland are Catholic ethos schools.

In cases where they are new to the country, they face a different set of obstacles in trying to enrol their children in Catholic ethos schools which they want to enrol their children in. I try and support them as much as I try and support parents who are seeking support for alternative arrangements for their children’s education.

Btw, if you can’t deal with what you describe as my pedantics, good luck to you in your dealings with the Department of Education or other Government bodies! 😬

I really don;t see why you can have a school that accomodates everyone.

You can, but it’s how any school chooses to accommodate everyone is part of the problem of trying to accommodate everyone, and it’s the Department of Education don’t make it as simple as you would wish it to be -

It’s not pedantics at all. The alternatives are provided in the Article. Specifically -

2 Parents shall be free to provide this education in their homes or in private schools or in schools recognised or established by the State.

THose aren't options if you're not qualified or don't have time to teach or can't afford private school.

There is no requirement for a parent to be a qualified teacher in order to educate their own children.

Parents not having time to educate their own children isn’t the impediment you make out it is either as there are numerous groups in Ireland who organise home schooling or organise facilities among themselves for the education of their children in schools which are not recognised by the State and therefore receive no State funding. The schools are entirely funded and organised by people who have an interest in providing education for the children in their communities.

I don't think anyone should have to travel 30 miles for an education, frankly; whereas you seem to have no problem with other people doing it.

What exactly is the difference between a "no faith" school that accomodates religious instruction and a religious school?

I'd argue that the State is massivly failing people here by not building and fundning a national school in the vacinity.

Exactly. Options in name are not real options. Flowery wording, act fails.

Did you read the first part of article 44? And did you forget the whole 'blasphemy referendum' thing? The state recognizes religion - this is important, the state believes that religion has a role to play and will take measures to impact that. You can't, for example, sue a school because it insists on your child being exposed to religious training because the state recognizes religion. Freedom means, the State can't get involved. Not the case in Ireland at all.

You are now changing the definition of freedom.

Freedom does not mean the state gets involved where the parents might take offence at their kids receiving religious instruction.

Freedom means you can choose to engage or not engage with religious beliefs and practices. The state does not have to provide an alternative on your doorstep so your sensitivities are catered for.

Freedom of religion exists in this country whether you think so or not.

What taxes are you paying that supports the catholic church? Are you a bit confused and perhaps think you're living in Germany?

It certainly doesn't have freedom from religion.

The taxes that pay the salaries of teachers in church schools.

The only pretence here is the pretence that parents have any realistic choice with the church operating 94% of schools. ET schools are typically oversubscribed about 500% based on personal experience. They are turning away five times as many students as they accept. Most have local restrictions in their enrolment policies, so those who aren't local are extremely unlikely to get a place.

But yeah, tell me again about the great choices those parents have.

It's down to a shortage of schools that aren't run by the church.

And rightly so. Kids SHOULD be going to the local school. A very large chunk of the traffic chaos on our roads is schools traffic. Kids should be going to the local school, within walking or cycling distance. They shouldn't be trawling from one side of the city to the other just to avoid being indoctrinated.

They DO think it is very important to get their claws into the under 10s, which is why they maintain the vice-like control grip on schools.

You seem confused between patronage and funding. Patrons don't pay salaries for teachers. Patrons don't pay for extra classroom blocks.

The only pretence here is the pretence that parents have any realistic choice with the church operating 94% of schools. ET schools are typically oversubscribed about 500% based on personal experience. They are turning away five times as many students as they accept. Most have local restrictions in their enrolment policies, so those who aren't local are extremely unlikely to get a place.

But yeah, tell me again about the great choices those parents have.

The only rash here is the one on my arse from the nervous scratching arising from the deep frustration at having to repeatedly explain to you that it's not my judgement. It is the church judgement, the church standard, the church rules.