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Football ranking table

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  • Registered Users Posts: 980 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Prediction model output for 7 of the 8 games this weekend attached:

    • New York's name is still throwing a spanner into my code and I haven't the time to fix it right now..so I removed this game from the PDF
    • Only a point between Clare and Meath in their last 2 meetings, and this one could be equally tight if both teams take a timid approach to the game following extremely disappointing previous round losses
    • Monaghan's form over the year has been pretty steady, whereas Mayo's has been more erratic. Which Mayo side will show up on Saturday for the first-ever championship clash of these teams?
    • Louth have performed better than expected in 8 of their last 9 games, while Cork have performed worse than expected in 9 of their last 10 games. This will be their 3rd ever championship meeting, with the record standing at 1-1.
    • Tyrone had a complete nightmare against Derry, performing 16 points worse than expected. Armagh's recent record is more consistent, even if there have been some bumps along the way
    • Both Fermanagh and Cavan have been going pretty well lately, but Cavan have been performing at a higher level, which should be enough to overcome the Brewster Park fear factor
    • Leitrim had an excellent first round win over Antrim, but Sligo's form looks more consistent
    • The last 2 meetings of Westmeath and Carlow finished in draw games (league of '17 and '19); Carlow haven't had a win over Westmeath since 1985, and given the gulf in rating points, that is unlikely to change


    tl;dr

    • Offaly by 10
    • Meath by 3
    • Mayo by 4
    • Cork by 4.4
    • Tyrone by 0.6
    • Cavan by 4.3
    • Leitrim by 1.3
    • Westmeath by 6.6




  • Registered Users Posts: 980 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Updated football ranking table below, Armagh were by far the biggest winners of the weekend, with a bonus-point win over a Tyrone team that drop to their lowest level since February 2015




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,629 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    If Cavan win the Tailteann Cup can they pass out Tyrone?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,479 ✭✭✭theoneeyedman


    My understanding of how it works is that Cavan will gain SFA from beating the likes of Sligo and Westmeath and winning the Tailtean Cup, they are below Cavan in the table, so I'd guess no, they won't pass Tyrone, but I'm open to correction.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,197 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Has Tyrone's fall been the quickest and/or furthest for a team that were top at the end of the previous years championship?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 980 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    You are correct that Cavan would not gain so much if they do beat Sligo, but if they have a big win over Westmeath in the final, and Westmeath had increased their worth by getting a big win over Offaly, then it's likely that Cavan could overtake Tyrone.

    Would Cavan be a better team than Tyrone? Would you fancy Cavan to take Tyrone, based on Tyrone's lacklustre performances this year?



  • Registered Users Posts: 980 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    A great question, and one I had planned to take a look at in the quiet season. Changes over a 2 or 3 year period might also tell more, as teams that won the All-Ireland in the previous year normally are somewhat on a pedestal in terms of the ranking table (i.e. it is set up that the All-Ireland champions would normally finish the year in no. 1 place).

    FWIW, Tyrone have lost 20 rating points since the start of this year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 980 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Prediction model output attached for this weekend's Round 2 qualifier games:

    • The draw in the league versus Clare was the only occasion in the previous 10 games where Roscommon under performed. This is the teams second-only ever meeting in the championship
    • Kildare have been trying their best imitation of Jekyll and Hyde this season, and while Mayo have also had some bumps along the way, they do seem more consistent
    • Limerick were hugely disappointing against Kerry (or was that hugely naive?); they could really put it up to a Cork side that don't seem to handle pressure particularly well. Still, Cork have won 16 of their previous 17 championship meetings
    • Armagh will surely be leaning on their Ulster loss to Donegal to spur them into action this weekend; apart from that game, their performances in 2022 appear relatively healthy. Donegal do seem to mix the good with the bad, but have not lost to Armagh in their previous 9 league and championship encounters. A tight one is in store

    tl;dr

    • Roscommon by 4.2
    • Mayo by 3.4
    • Cork by 5.6
    • Donegal by 0.6




  • Registered Users Posts: 980 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Only 12 teams left now between the All-Ireland championship (teams ranked 1 to 6, 11 and 14) and the Tailteann Cup (teams ranked 13, 16, 19 and 23).

    Last weekend's round 2 qualifier games caused some movements in the top half of the ranking table:

    • Armagh's big win over Donegal gained them 5 rating points and bumped them up to 4th place, heights not seen since 2010!
    • Clare's excellent win over Roscommon rewards them with 4.7 rating points
    • Mayo and Cork also made gains following their wins over Kildare and Limerick




  • Registered Users Posts: 980 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Tailteann cup seim-finals time!

    • There is a minor rating difference between Offaly and Westmeath which is the first clue that this will be a close one. What is also interesting is that Offaly have over-performed in their previous 2 games by approx. 5 points whereas Westmeath have underperformed by approx. 3 points.
    • With their last championship meeting being in 1928, there is not much history between Cavan and Sligo. Sligo haven't beaten Cavan in the league since 2004 and it is unlikely that they will make the championship record 2-0 against the Breffni here

    tl;dr

    • Westmeath by 0.7
    • Cavan by 8.6




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  • Registered Users Posts: 980 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Ranking table updated after yesterday's Tailteann Cup semi-finals:




  • Registered Users Posts: 980 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Prediction model output attached for this weekend's All-Ireland quarter-finals:

    • Dublin's SFC form looks nothing like their NFL form - they have won each of their 3 Leinster games by 10 points more than expected. Cork, on the other hand, seem to be operating perfectly at their level. Which is highly unlikely to be anywhere near good enough.
    • Derry and Clare meet for the first time ever in the SFC, and both come into the game with good form. The opposition that Derry have taken down in the last 2 months is quite impressive, while Clare's opponents have not been of the same quality. Clare are dogged though, and unlikely to make life easy for a Derry side that have their sights set higher
    • IT's 5 years since Mayo beat Kerry in the championship, and 3 years since they beat them in the league. This year's league final was surely an eye-opener for Mayo, but will they have enough to put up a 70 minute challenge?
    • Almost no difference in rating points between Armagh and Galway in what promises to be a very entertaining game of open football. Armagh's record against Galway in the SFC is not good (3 games, 3 losses), and both seem to be coming into the game on similar trajectories of form, i.e. mostly middling to good

    tl;dr

    • Dublin by 7
    • Derry by 7.5
    • Kerry by 3.1
    • Galway by 0.2



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,629 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    How is extra time + penalties handled in comparison with earlier years when there would be a replay?

    Penalties should be the least points possible for a victory.

    It probably doesn't make much difference to placings, Mayo probably dropped more than Armagh anyhow. Three of the top four teams will be in Div 2 next season, that must be unusual.



  • Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭Fiyatoe




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,629 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,850 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    Even before penalties, I wondered how extra time should be best handled. It felt unfair to just treat it the same as a standard win, when it was a draw in normal time. On top of this the rules for extra time used to vary between provinces and stages of the competition.

    So say hypothetically Carlow drew with Dublin in a Leinster QF but then got beaten in extra time, the rankings treated it the same as a Dublin win in normal time and Carlow got no points.

    Then in the next round Longford drew with Dublin in the SF, before losing to them in a replay. The rankings would give Longford some points for the draw, despite them achieving the same feat as Carlow, who got nothing.

    It's less of a concern now since nearly all games are result-on-the-day but still has a slight bearing on league vs. championship.



  • Registered Users Posts: 980 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    It's a tough one, and I don't see any perfect solution. As things stand, an extra time win is treated as a "normal" win, and the eventual loser that managed to draw the game in normal time is not rewarded. (A win on penalties is considered a draw).

    Taking your example above of 2 teams with a huge rating difference: if Longford drew with Dublin, then Longford would gain some rating points from Dublin (and likely quite a lot, given the rating difference between them). And when Dublin hypothetically beat Longford in the replay, even by 6 points or more, Dublin would not gain any rating points as they are more than 15 points ahead of Longford. So in this case, Longford would gain something out of their draw, but if extra time were to be played, and they lost, then they get nothing for their efforts.

    If we take an example of 2 teams with a minor rating points difference, Dublin and Kerry. If they were to draw and it was to go to a replay, Dublin would pick up some rating points. If Kerry were to win the replay, then Dublin would lose more rating points than what they would have gained from their draw (the closer the teams are in rating points, the more the higher rated team gains after a win). In this case, Dublin would have lost more rating points if they had been beaten after extra-time.

    Not perfect by any means - if anyone has any suggestions, I'm open to hear them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 980 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Apologies for the delay, the last week disappeared somewhere..........

    Updated ranking table below after last weekend's 4 quarter-finals:

    • Kerry took a skelp of rating points off of Mayo, and firmly cement their place at the top of the table
    • The Galway-Armagh classic was treated as a draw game, which means that Armagh retain a lead over Galway in the rankings
    • No rating points were exchanged in the Derry-Clare or Dublin-Cork games




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,629 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    The thing that strikes me about the rankings now is the lowly position of Tyrone, as last year's champions and as a team that retained their position in Div 1. They are one place away from Clare, but I think if they played Clare they would be strong favourites. I think this reflects the unequal nature of the provincial champions, Kildare and Clare got to a provincial final but so would Tyrone have if they were playing in Leinster or Munster (and didn't meet Kerry or Dublin).



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,197 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    But Clare did not get to the provincial final.

    They lost on penalities to Limerick, which I guess went down as a draw.

    But look at Tyrone's year after being top at the end of last season.

    Average league.

    Then beat a lower ranked team in Fermanagh.

    Lost to a lower ranked team in Derry

    Lost to another lower ranked team in Armagh

    That's exactly the type of form that send you down the table fast.

    Clare on the other had had an average Div 2

    Drew with a lower ranked team.

    Then beat two higher ranked teams the lost to a higher ranked team.

    They really did the opposite of what Tyrone did.

    Beat higher ranked teams instead of losing to lower ranked ones.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 980 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    There can be a certain amount of luck in terms of which teams you draw in the championship - lose narrowly to 2 teams of pretty similar ratings and you are punished, lose by any margin to 2 teams that sit 15 rating points above you, and you don't lose anything.

    Saying that, Tyrone took 2 heavy beatings (i.e. more than 5 points) in this year's championship. Yes, they probably would be favourites against Clare, but I wouldn't necessarily fancy them against any of the teams above them in the rankings, based on their performances against Derry and Armagh.



  • Registered Users Posts: 980 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Prediction model output attached for this weekend's Tailteann Cup final and Sam Maguire Cup semi-finals:

    • The semi-finals of the Tailteann Cup resulted in contrasting fortunes for Westmeath and Cavan compared to their 2 earlier games - Cavan under-performed against Sligo (while over-performing against Fermanagh and Down), whereas Westmeath over-performed against Offaly (and under-performed against Carlow and Laois). There has only been one prior championship meeting (a 2014 qualifier resulting in a narrow Cavan win), and Westmeath have only won 2 of their 14 previous encounters
    • Notably, the 2022 league loss to Galway is the only visible blot on Derry's copybook over the last 20 games. There have been 3 previous SFC meetings between the sides, and it stands at 3-0 to Galway (identical to Galway's record against Armagh, before the quarter-final!). However, given the favourable rating points difference, the model is going for Derry (in normal time 😉)
    • Almost 9 rating points separating Dublin from Kerry, Dublin have done a real Jekyll and Hyde between their league and championship performances; Kerry were perhaps not well tested in the Munster SFC but perfectly controlled the game against what was possibly a limited Mayo side. This will be their 27th SFC meeting (it's hard to imagine 2 teams from different provinces having met as many times) and Dublin have generally held the upper hand over their previous 20 championship and league appearances. Which Dublin will show up? And how will Kerry react to a serious challenge?

    tl;dr

    • Cavan by 3.1
    • Derry by 1.5
    • Kerry by 2.6


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,010 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    They've not beaten us in the Championship since 2009. They're due. But I'll gladly put that off another year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,313 ✭✭✭TITANIUM.


    Were well due a championship win over ye in fairness, unfortunately come Sunday that will count for diddly squat. Looking like the weather will lean towards a good game of football. Can't wait



  • Registered Users Posts: 980 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Updated ranking table below after this weekend's excitement:

    • Kerry's win over Dublin sees Dublin drop back to 5th, a ranking that they have not seen since February 2013!
    • Galway's victory results in them replacing Derry in 2nd place ; Derry will surely be disappointed with the loss, but they have made huge strides this year with 10 ranking places and 15.7 rating points gained
    • An unexpected win for Westmeath lifts them to 13th, where they have not been since 2017





  • Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭WJL


    My God Laois are so low. Something seriously amiss for a county contesting Leinster finals every decade in football basically. And 2003-2005, 2007.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,629 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Armagh and Laois were not so different only a few seasons ago, but have diverged.



  • Registered Users Posts: 980 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Prediction model output for the All-Ireland final attached:

    • While Galway's form (score minus predicted result) has been good (vs Mayo, Leitrim and Derry) or ok (vs Roscommon and Armagh) during this year's SFC, they were coming from a lower base, having started the championship at 93.6 rating points
    • This is in contrast to Kerry, who started the SFC numero uno (on 107.1 rating points), and have, despite being far ahead of the field, exceeded expectations against Cork, Limerick and Mayo. The result against Dublin was a little underwhelming, but they may feel that they did enough to get the job done
    • Apart from the mauling they received in the first round of last year's league (did Tyrone not also receive a mauling in Kerry last year? #omens), recent games between the 2 are generally low scoring affairs
    • The prediction model's primary variable is the rating point difference between the teams - Galway held leads of 6 points or more against Mayo, Roscommon and Armagh with approx 10 minutes to go, but let these leads slip. In the end, they only got a bonus win (for winning by 5 points or more) against Derry. "If" they had managed to hold their leads, they would have more rating points today, and the prediction model might be pointing a different way. However, they did lose these leads, and that has to be a cause of concern to the Galway camp

    The prediction model is going for a Kerry win by 3.8 points.



  • Registered Users Posts: 980 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    Huge congratulations to Kerry for a well-managed victory over a Galway side that surprised many. I will do up an end of year review later in the year, but for now, the final ranking table for 2022 is below. Kerry stand head and shoulders above the rest, while some other teams have seen hugely contrasting flips in their fortunes.




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  • Registered Users Posts: 980 ✭✭✭laoisman11


    According to the ranking table, who were the biggest winners and losers from 2022?

    Biggest winners:

    • An All-Ireland semi-final appearance, champions of Ulster and narrowly missing out on promotion from Division 2 made this an excellent year for Derry, with 10 ranking places and almost 16 rating points gained. All the more remarkable as Derry were 3rd in the biggest winner's list in 2021!
    • 11.8 rating points gained in 2022 for the All-Ireland champions after a clean sweep of league and championship, Kerry hold top spot going into 2023
    • With an jump of 7 places in the rankings and a gain of 11.3 rating points, 2022 was the year when Kieran McKeevers persistence finally paid off with sensational knock-out wins for Armagh over Tyrone and Donegal
    • Honorable mentions to Galway and Sligo (both increased their worth by 9.7 rating points) and Louth (an increase of 8.2 rating points)

    Biggest losers:

    • Not many would have predicted that the 2021 All-Ireland champions would be top of the biggest loser's list in 2022, but how the mighty have fallen. A total of 20 rating points and 9 ranking places given up mean that Tyrone have plenty of ammunition to do better in 2023, if that so pleases them
    • Two years in a row that these two teams find themselves in the biggest loser category (the only positive is that it is virtually impossible to be here for 3 years in a row!) - Tipperary dropped 11.3 rating points and 8 ranking places while Laois dropped 10.7 rating points and 9 ranking places in 2022. And this despite Tipperary getting promotion from Division 4 (where Laois will replace them!)
    • Honorable mentions to Longford (-10.1 rating points), Dublin (-8.5, 2nd year in a row for honorable loser mention), and Mayo and Down (both -8.0 rating points)




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