Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

Your claim was that the Russians committed their entire forces to Ukraine leaving themselves completely undefended from Moscow and St Petersburg to the borders.

When called on to provide proof of said claim, you could only post an article from the National Review quoting unnamed sources which claims 75% of forces are involved in Ukraine. Which already refutes your claim.

It was nothing but hyperbole and bluster from yourself and yet you cant admit you were wrong.

There's "footage", just none you can actually provide. Any footage provided on examination will show you've deliberately taken it out of context to deceive.

Take this pack of lies to the conspiracy theory forum where it belongs.

Russia invaded Ukraine, another soveriegn country. Ukraine can provoke Russia, but you don't allow Ukraine to be provoked by Russia in training to defend itself against illegal invasions and occupations.

Ahem what?

Did Ukraine invade Russia in 2017? or 2018? You can't even get your lies straight.

Ukraine will go on the offensive - in 2017. Clearly talking about driving out Russian forces still fighting in Donbas region in violation of Minsk agreements.

Russia started this war when they invaded Ukranian sovereign territory in Crimea and sent Russian military into Donbas. Territory they recognised as Ukranian in the Budapest agreement.

Ukraine as a sovereign nation has the right to join NATO. It was the invasion by Russia of Crimea that propelled them along a path they might otherwise not have taken. If you want to know why Ukraine wants to join NATO, it is obvious. Because it is their only way to be free of Russian domination.

As predicted, your posts are nothing more than out of context information deliberately misrepresented to deceive.

You constantly ask for evidence and when incontrovertible evidence is supplied as above you fly off on different tangents to distract. Its pointless debating with you.

Nothing could be further from the truth. What disgusts me is that young and old Ukrainian men are getting sent to certain death and injury in their thousands in a battle that cant be won. The extra men he is throwing in as cannon fodder to keep the optics up is also disgusting. There was no counter offensive as reported last week. His frontline visit last week just smacks of desperation to keep the lie alive.

Negotiations are the only way forward not more cannon fodder. But none of you want to hear that.

Looking at this link, we are very much seeing point 3 in action on this very thread:

Fact 3: military aggression is just one element of Russian hybrid warfare against Ukraine

Military aggression is just one element of the Russian hybrid warfare against Ukraine. Other elements encompass:

1) propaganda based on lies and falsifications; 2) trade and economic pressure; 3) energy blockade; 4) terror and intimidation of Ukrainian citizens; 5) cyber attacks; 6) a strong denial of the very fact of war against Ukraine despite large scope of irrefutable evidence; 7) use of pro-Russian forces and satellite states in its own interests; 8) blaming the other side for its own crimes.

We should not lose sight of this and nevermind the people who have spend countless hours and wrote hundreds, if not thousands of words trying to convince us that Ukraine is to blame for this war or should have surrendered immediately. Who would spend hours upon hours writing endless reams of text, trying to desperately convince us otherwise? Just one piece of advice guys. Don't accept payment in Roubles. Whatever you're selling guys, it doesn't matter if you write the equivalent of the Library of Alexandria every hour for the rest of eternity, we're not buying it. If you do nothing else for the rest of your lives, we're not buying it.

Would you turn around if you were succeeding in your objectives albeit at a slow pace?

The idea that all Russian actions to date are based on the whims of a mass murderer is pretty delusional.

Were Putin actually that unhinged so as to want to invade Ukraine simply to rack up the bodycount he would have been removed from power long ago, or else he would have deployed actual weapons of mass destruction. But yet neither of those have occurred.

The Russians have strategic and or political goals in mind, whether they will achieve them is doubtful, but the idea that any negotiation couldnt work because of Putin as a mass murdered is simply false. I dont know what the price would be from either side to agree peace terms, but every man and every nation have their price.

You are mistaken. I did not claim that Putin is unhinged.

Putin launched the Russian army across the border with unspecified war aims, other than vague "de-nazification".

The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) verified a total of 4,169 civilian deaths during Russia's military attack on Ukraine as of June 1, 2022. Of them, 268 were children. Furthermore, 4,982 people were reported to have been injured. However, OHCHR specified that the real numbers could be higher.

The deliberate killing of 4169 innocent people, in my opinion, constitutes mass murder.

Ergo, Putin is a mass murderer.

Edit:

Death toll taken from:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casualties/

To paraphrase Darth Putin, nothing speaks to Russia's commitment to denazification more than its treatment of its Jewish members.

Moscow's chief rabbi leaves Russia after regime demanded he support war in Ukraine.

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/06/8/7351228/

Definitely, that will definitely keep him happy.I am sure they will be more polite next time too.

Save the rape ,pillage and genocide for countries outside Europe I expect.

I knew we could all just get along

Perhaps I don't follow your (rather condescending, in my opinion) logic.

What does this mean:

"Your original claim was a platitude of "how do you negotiate with a mass murderer"?"

Platitude? How is a straightforward question a "platitude"?

Examples from European history suggest that negotiations with killers rarely end well.

Bosnia Herzegovina is an example, trying to deal with Mladic, Karadic or Milosovic merely prolonged the murder, until NATO bombed Belgrade.

The question originally posted is unanswered, how do you negotiate with Putin?

This is very frightening, it brings to mind 1930's Germany