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January 6 Public Hearings

  • 07-06-2022 5:05pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭


    When are the hearings’ dates and times?

    The first hearing will start Thursday, June 9, at 8 p.m. Eastern. The committee hasn’t announced a formal schedule for the rest, but there could be as many as eight through June, with a final hearing in September — right before the November midterm elections.

    How to watch the hearings

    The committee usually live-streams its hearings, and most major TV news stations will be airing at least Thursday’s hours-long hearings in full: TheWrap reports that ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC and CNN plan to. Fox News is the only major news network to decide not to, instead saying it will continue with its regular, primetime coverage and talk about the hearings “as warranted.”

    The Washington Post will have anchored coverage and analysis beginning Thursday night on www.washingtonpost.com.

    What to watch for

    The committee plans to detail their findings of what they say was a months-long Republican conspiracy to overthrow Joe Biden’s legitimate election victory, led by President Donald Trump. The committee could even accuse Trump of committing a crime by intentionally trying to stop Congress’s certification of Biden’s win on Jan. 6, 2021. But Congress’s power is limited; ultimately, the Justice Department would have to decide whether to prosecute.

    Investigators have not gotten many close Trump allies or top Republican members of Congress to testify. So they plan to call in staffers to some of the top players, like aides to former vice president Mike Pence, or former White House chief of staff Mark Meadows. And they plan to play videos of their previous interviews with Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner, report The Post’s Jacqueline Alemany, Josh Dawsey and Amy Gardner.

    Each hearing will have a theme. On Thursday, lawmakers are planning to introduce the public to what they’ve been up to for the past 11 months since Democrats in Congress voted to set up the investigatory committee. Only two Republicans, Reps. Liz Cheney (Wyo.) and Adam Kinzinger (Ill.) sit on it, and there are no Trump allies on the committee. They will make an opening statement that offers an overview of the Jan. 6 events.

    The New York Times reports that on Thursday, a documentarian who interviewed the Proud Boys and a Capitol police officer who was injured in the attack will provide testimony as some of the panel’s first public witnesses. This comes after the current and former leaders of the Proud Boys were charged with seditious conspiracy, for allegedly planning the attack on the Capitol.

    ...

    When the hearings go live it will be streaming at the following:

    Fox News instead has already ramped up its midterms seasonal coverage of "migrant caravans" that will be broadcast as counterprogramming beginning now through the rest of the year, ending abruptly after election day (again).

    Rep. Elise Stefanik teased additional efforts to counterprogram the hearings will proceed as well.

    “We’re working very closely with President Trump and his team with Leader Kevin McCarthy, with Jim Jordan, and really all of the House Republicans will be pushing back in a rapid response fashion,” Stefanik said, previewing what is to come.

    McCarthy and Jordan were among those subpoenaed by the January 6 committee who refused to cooperate. Jim Jordan particularly demanded that the committee disclose all of their sensitive investigative info for him before he would cooperate - something totally innocent people do all the time. He has told multiple versions in public of what happened on January 6, including different versions of whether or not he spoke to POTUS on January 6, or what time on January 6, or what about.

    Stefanik called the committee "unconstitutional" but it remains unclear how this applies to the January 6 select committee, and not previous select Committees on eg. Benghazi, or Emailgate. Republicans rejected an earlier proposal to have an even more even-handed panel that would have been Bicameral; they filibustered the vote to make this happen. Proceeding that effort, Republicans outed Liz Cheney as the GOP House leader for her cooperation with Nancy Pelosi in devising a January 6 select subcommittee. Kevin McCarthy (who refused to cooperate as a witness) tried to recommend Jim Jordan and other Republicans to the panel that had actively voted to object to electors or had even sponsored lawsuits against the results (the least impartial investigators).

    What remains clear is that Republicans have been found and evidenced to have coordinated in very real terms a seditious conspiracy to overthrow the legitimate election results of the 2020 presidential race - all 3rd party ninja audits, lawsuits etc. all exhausted, there was no There there, and Mike Lindell, the MyPillow CEO, may die mad about it. But, this went from not just mere challenging of votes or recounts but extended to having the GOP coordinate on a national level to send falsified slates of electors to congress (fraud, charges of which are working their way through the legal system right now) to which then VP Pence was to be encouraged to use as 'reasoning' to suspend the Electoral Count, which is outlined in the constitution and codified as 3 USC § 15. It included members of Trump's administration and shadow-administration (members who worked for Trump but were not federal employees or cabinet members, such as Rudy Giuliani and Roger Stone) meeting with militia groups in DC in the days prior to the autocoup attempt; it also included the likes of Marjorie Taylor Greene providing extraordinary tours to individuals on January 5th of the capital, during Covid. It even appears to at least extend so far as encouraging threats against Mike Pence to 'keep him in line.' At its core, the strategy was known as the Green Bay Sweep, and Navarro has basically told the public everything there is to know about the sweep, even though he says he can't tell it to the committee, or comply with their subpoena, because it is "executive privilege" (it's not privileged if you already disclosed it on Fox News, and if it was executive privilege, it is current POTUS's right to assert or waive that privilege, not any former POTUS over any sensitive issue). And more! This included pressuring Republican Secretaries of State to just find or come up with a convenient number of new votes for Trump, and even today includes trying to oust those in office who refused to cooperate with such pressure. Prosecuting documents for the Proud Boys indicate they dressed in black to be 'incognito' (possibly to appear to be Antifa) and they arranged to approach the Capitol building in the days leading up to the event, in a scattered way so as not to reveal their coordination.

    At his morning rally, Trump said publicly to Pence, "Mike Pence, I hope you're going to stand up for the good of our Constitution and for the good of our country."

    Shortly thereafter and before being gaveled in, Pence relayed the following, essentially that MAGA's interpretation of the law was wrong, that the VP does not have any power to consider fraudulent slates of electors:


    This tweet didn't take long to be TLDR'd by the crowd, and they became angry and started breaching the capital fences, about 5 mins before Pelosi gaveled the session into order. As things continued to devolve outside, Pence proceeded inside, Senator Ted Cruz sponsored an objection by a House member and the ECA proceeded as proscribed. At least until it became clear the building proceeded to being smashed into, which is when Pence was whisked away by the Secret Service and the session was suspended.

    "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution," Trump tweeted not long after it became clear that chaos had ensued. From there, aides report Trump expressed empathy with calls to "Hang Mike Pence," and it took him the bulk of several hours to come up with a public address to 'lead' the crowd to resume calm and order, a video address which reportedly had to be reshot in multiple takes, as POTUS kept forgetting to ask the rioters to remain peaceful or leave. One rioter tried to charge at an armed officer through a broken glass panel on a locked door and was killed at the scene, at least one officer protecting the Capitol later died from his injuries and 4 other officers iirc took their own lives. Hundreds have been arrested for their actions that day, ranging from simple trespassing, theft, vandalism, obstructing an official proceeding to organized charges of seditious conspiracy (ie. your criminal charge for 'insurrection')

    Following most of the days events, the Congress finally resumed late into the evening, in a tattered room, and many GOP lawmakers expressed they were "done" with Donald Trump, "Count me out" Lindsay Graham said. But in the aftermath of January 6 it apparently became clear to them that Trump still had a lot of diehard populist support, and one by one they've all come back to him, or they've been browbeat into resigning. Now prepared to offer us their counterprogramming and excuses for why January 6 isn't a big deal, or why we need to be focused on such and such distraction but not this attempt by one political establishment over the other to autocoup the effective end of the US Republic system.



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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Breaking: Fraudulent Electors were instructed to keep what they knew about the Sweep a secret. As part of this, they had to trick Congressional/State-Capitol security into admitting them into the building on false pretenses:

    “I must ask for your complete discretion in this process,” wrote Robert Sinners, the campaign’s election operations director for Georgia, the day before the 16 Republicans gathered at the Georgia Capitol to sign certificates declaring themselves duly elected. “Your duties are imperative to ensure the end result — a win in Georgia for President Trump — but will be hampered unless we have complete secrecy and discretion.”

    The Dec. 13, 2020, email went on to instruct the electors to tell security guards at the building that they had an appointment with one of two state senators. “Please, at no point should you mention anything to do with Presidential Electors or speak to the media,” Sinners continued in bold.



    Post edited by Overheal on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 296 ✭✭Ham_Sandwich


    isn't plotting and attempting a coup classed as treason? should be death sentences all round.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Treason is generally used as a catchall term, and the fuzziness around the offense in english law iirc is what led the framers of the US constitution to explicitly define it, one of the few offenses to be defined directly in the constitution,

    Article III, Section 3, Clause 1: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

    Codified as 18 USC § 2381:

    Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

    Certainly the Proud Boys used language like "war" etc. in their communications, but 18 US Code § 2384 is more apt (seditious conspiracy):

    If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

    Even by the plain reading though there's a lot synonymous between the 2 offenses. By levying war you've potentially committed both, but treason seems to more directly fall in with giving enemies of the state aid and comfort. The sedition implies that, you're not working with the states enemies, you're all members of the state.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 296 ✭✭Ham_Sandwich


    Well they were backed by Putin so they definitely were working with the states enemies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    If Proud Boys were indeed evidenced working with the Kremlin, yeah maybe.



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  • Posts: 2,016 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Unusual time to have it on isn't it? These things usually begin in the morning I would have thought. 8pm is really geared for prime time tv.

    1am our time. First hour or 2 should be interesting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,801 ✭✭✭Dillonb3


    Probably to throw the Fox News evening hosts off guard on any revelations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    It's also informed by the viewership for the impeachment trials, which took place during the day. The committee actually wants to get the information out to the mass public, not have it disseminated later by spin doctors, yes. I think they're also concerned with viewership during working hours.



  • Posts: 2,016 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The only chance you'd ever get of an Irish government committee sitting from 8pm to midnight would be to arrange another bank bailout



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The last time they were live from Congress this late at night with such pomp it was ... January 6. Graham seen here speaking into the 10 o'clock hour with the eyes and ears of the world

    Matt Gaetz likely knew the Proud Boys were going to be dressing in "BLACK"

    From Prosecuting Documents in the OP.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    We haven't even started the hearing, Marge

    MTG claims for CSPAN audiences that Ashli Babbit wasn't at all trying to climb through a broken window on a locked door with a gun pointing at her already noooo, because, according to Marge, an evidently separate video shows Babbit 'trying to stop' people from breaking and entering. #doubt, for one. For another, who was she trying to stop from breaking and entering when she was shot in the midst of breaking and entering? She was the first person to try and go through, she wasn't stopping anyone. If 100% true, I don't see how earlier efforts to exculpate herself and others eliminates the facts about the moments leading up to her death.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Solid explanation of the legal underpinnings supporting the committee's work. Republicans and their supporters have taken to trying to rules-lawyer their way into dissolving the committee on a technicality of some sort?




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,698 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    Best strategy would be to lower expectations of how effective these will be and be hoping they over perform. These big moments never seen to live up to the hype.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The DOJ filed a rebuttal to Peter Navarro, who filed a continuance against the FBI . In the continuance Navarro accused the FBI of denying him access to food, water, and a call to his lawyer. He is trying to delay his arraignment and status conference on June 17.

    According to the DOJ, Navarro defaulted to calling agents 'nazis' and when they offered to call his lawyer for him, he said “I’m supposed to be on live television tonight. I’d like to call the producer and tell him I’m not going to be there. Can I have my phone?” The kicker: Navarro repeatedly told both agents, and the magistrate judge, that he was representing himself pro se.

    He's requesting a 45 day continuance when he's already been given 14 days to appoint counsel etc.

    But lying about the conditions of arrest is hardly new for MAGA here



  • Posts: 2,016 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    True. The Democrats almost always **** these things up. Remember Mueller. Hopefully tonight will be an exception, if so I would be pleasantly surprised.

    There's no point putting this on in prime time unless they can apply a bit of charisma and energy to stop people from switching off.



  • Posts: 2,016 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Bennie Thompson giving a good safe boring opening speech, let's hope Liz Chaney let's off a few fireworks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,206 ✭✭✭✭Rjd2


    Don't think much will come of this sadly. The people who will watch are probably more than familiar with the day and those who don't will be those on the right and quite a lot of people who 18 months later don't really care . Lets see how the ratings go though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Bill Barr was shown in deposition evidencing that he told Trump emphatically that the claims of a 2020 election win in his favor were "bullshit" this is a story that has played out in print media already

    Rep. Scott Perry and others sought presidential pardons from Trump after the January 6 insurrection

    Footage shown at the hearing demonstrated how Trumps tweet that "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution," etc. was the final catalyst that began the crowd incited into chants of Hang Mike Pence. Trump responded at the time that Pence "deserved it"

    Officer Caroline Edwards gave a fairly graphic testimony about the skirmish that happened that day, detailing hand to hand combat and improvised weapons including bike racks being used.

    The committee also presented a supercut of witness testimonials of capitol rioters who all explicitly indicated Trump asked them to be there.

    “Although certain former Trump officials have argued they did not anticipate violence on Jan. 6, the evidence suggests otherwise,” she said. “As you will see in our hearings, the White House was receiving specific reports in the days leading up to Jan. 6, including during President Trump’s Ellipse rally, indicating that elements in the crowd were preparing for violence at the Capitol.”

    Cheney outlined the steps, from before 'Stand Back and Stand by' to pressuring of state election officials 'Come to washington on January 6, will be wild!' to false slates of electors to 'we're marching over to the CAPITOL' to 'Mike Pence failed us'

    Cheney displayed lots of very damning evidence of seditious conspiracy and coordinated Proud Boy action.

    Edit: superb 'superlink' I found on Washington Post, here's a free link that should view through the end of June:


    Post edited by Overheal on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,717 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Watched the first hour of so of this. That 12 minute video of the riot was pretty harrowing, the Capitol Police were in hand to hand combat with the rioters for what seemed like hours. Interesting to see Ivanka pop up and say she didnt believe the election was stolen and Bill Barr said he had 3 meetings with Trump across November and December to say the same thing.

    Cheney herself came across very credibly. It will be interesting to see all the other evidence they have, especially the telephone intercepts and unseen CCTV. Right now it is looking like Trump allowed the riot to carry on for 3-4 hours before telling his supporters to go home, this was despite a rake of his advisors screaming at him to call a halt to it and some of them resigning on the spot when he didnt. When is the next installment, I think Cheney said something about next week?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,717 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    cheers. Do you know is it one 2 hour session a week or how does it go? I think it is going to last a few months?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Fox News reportedly forewent commercials for all 2.5 hours of the committee hearing - they were VERY concerned about losing viewers to the actual hearing. They spent most of the time with the hearing Picture in Picture while talking heads like Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson bloviated with figures like bullshit artist John Solomon* and others about how unfair it all was and how pointless it all is etc.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Solomon_(political_commentator)#Solomon's_part_in_the_Trump%E2%80%93Ukraine_scandal

    Some light is seeping through on Bullshit MountainTM but just a little bit.

    Which you sat there the whole time say something number one you gotta accept the results of an election. Get your legal team out there. You go ahead and pursue it aggressively, responsibly. And after that, when William Barr, your greatest ally turns around and said there is nothing there.

    When your MVP Mike Pence who has with you through every step of the way said there is nothing there. When Ivanka Trump and Jared [Kushner] say we can’t see any proof that there is anything there, you turn the page and Donald Trump would probably would have 68 percent approval ratings right now ready to be Grover Cleveland, ready for four more years. Not that they can’t do that.

    Several of last nights late-night monologues were live recorded to react to the hearing



    Fox is handling it well on Youtube...

    With videos that look as whiney as the 'whining' they appear to complain about.

    But I'll bite for posterity on this one, come on creepy car salesman guy (The Chairman of CPAC, Matt Schlapp), what are the "real questions?" That's the only video title here that even attempts to present an argument, the rest just "whiiiiiiine"

    Q: 'How come Jamie Raskin can object to electors but "a retired teacher, or a mom, or a dad, or somebody, wants to go to the capitol and [attempt a coup] somehow there is something untoward about their desire to speak up? Why can't they also speak up?"

    A:


    Q: "Why did Benny Thompson say that Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz should be put on the No Fly list?"

    A: Guilty people go to Cancun :)


    A2: (A rare, paywall free link from WaPo - an exhaustive biographical article of Hawley and how we got here)

    “You have caused this!” Sen. Mitt Romney (R-Utah) erupted at him, referring to the events building up to the storming of the Capitol, according to a person familiar with the exchange, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe private conversations.


    “I feel very responsible for Josh Hawley being in the Senate. I feel terrible about it,” said former senator John C. Danforth (R-Mo.), who recently called his encouragement of Hawley’s Senate run the “greatest mistake of my life.” He added, “Josh Hawley played a central role in creating if not the darkest day in American history, one of the darkest days in American history.”

    Matt Schlapp then complained, if you are a Republican, you get "ghetto justice" which is just as absurd as it is insipid.

    Tucker Carlson then bizarrely implied Mitch McConnell and Lindsey Graham were 'MIA' and then shouted "shoot more Trump voters! don't they deserve representation?" All of them have had their due process.

    Matt Schlapp:

    "We all knew it was going to be a tumultuous and emotional day" asking why the Capitol Police force was, allegedly, at half strength. He cites a FOIA request for this, but I couldn't find it online. Smells like laundered bullshit.

    Basically, 'we shouldn't talk about Why Trump planned an autocoup, we should ask why they were allowed to so nearly succeed?"

    And, Trevor Noah roasted Fox in classic Daily Show fashion with a rolling montage exhibiting irony and hypocrisy




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Jake Tapper interview with Benny Thompson (Acting Committee chair - Jamie Raskin is in absentia following the suicide of one of his children, RIP)

    Thompson laid out that they have testimony that ties the Proud Boys to Trump's orbit

    THOMPSON: Well, I think obviously it was never before seen footage of what occurred. The fact that Trump’s daughter was in the video. The fact that his son-in- law in the video. The fact that a lot of the organizing aspect of the January 6 —

    TAPPER: The Proud Boys, the Oath Keepers.

    THOMPSON: We saw them in the midst of the insurrection, but we didn’t see what they were doing, organizationally before. So, we showed the meeting on the 5th in the parking lot with a group that normally they don’t.

    TAPPER: Two rival far right-wing extremist groups meeting breaking bread. Right?

    THOMPSON: That’s right.

    TAPPER: But you know what, I wonder about the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers. You convincingly made the case that Trump was good for their membership. And you convincingly made the case that they were there, they thought, because Trump them to be there to undermine the election and to stop the electoral count vote — the electoral vote count. Are there going to be witnesses that describe actual conversations between these extremist groups and anyone in Trump’s orbit?

    THOMPSON: Yes.

    TAPPER: There will be?

    THOMPSON: Yes. Obviously, you have to go to the hearing, but we have a number of witnesses who come forward that people have not talked to before, that will document a lot of what was going on in the Trump orbit while all of this was occurring.

    TAPPER: So, it’s not just happenstance that they were there? That they were encouraged directly by people around.


    TAPPER: Are you building a criminal case? I know you can’t charge, but are you building a criminal case for the Justice Department, potentially to charge Donald Trump with seditious conspiracy?

    THOMPSON: Well, we are building a case based on the facts and circumstances that our investigation determined. We’ve filed with the court in California, certain aspects of what our findings have been. And the judge ruled that there were certain things that the president is guilty of that —

    TAPPER: Yes. Or could be guilty of?

    THOMPSON: Could be guilty of.

    TAPPER: Yes.

    THOMPSON: But, as you said, that’s not our job. We are there to look solely at the facts and circumstance and provide recommendations to Congress.

    Now, the Justice Department has inquired as to our sharing of our information. We expect to make that available to them at some point because this whole effort is a publicly funded endeavor. So, the public has a right to know.

    TAPPER: But would you agree with the reporting that Jamie Gangel offered earlier today, which is that you have a lot of audiences for your hearings, but there are also is Attorney General Merrick Garland as somebody that you expect and hope is watching. You are talking to him also. You are presenting a case for him to consider.

    THOMPSON: Well, we are presenting the facts to the public. I think that if the attorney general gets an opportunity to view the entirety of our records, it would be very helpful to him. But that’s in his lane.

    TAPPER: Yes.

    THOMPSON: We are not trying to confuse the two. But at some point, we do plan to cooperate, if requested. And that’s what any law-abiding citizen would want to do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The burning questions, if ANTIFA actually was who perpetrated January 6:

    The worst part for me is the Arby's bag.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I forgot this takeaway:

    Mike Pence was the Acting President on January 6. Trump was considered incapacitated, and the cabinet simply felt that the process to invoke the 25th was too bureaucratic when the POTUS himself had gone absent after instigating a coup. And Impeachment is even slower still.

    Abramson is correct that this presents a new legislative topic (which only reinforces the legality of the committee): codifying emergency mechanisms whereby a system is in place if a POTUS attempts an autocoup.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,189 ✭✭✭Brucie Bonus


    They'll be lucky if Trump gets done for inciting a riot. Most Republicans are okay with Jan 6th.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 933 ✭✭✭busunderer


    ^ absurd analysis from NBC



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    not following it, but has the appearance of a one sided show trial, its probably useful politically but ethically it certainly isnt a high-ground maneuver

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Was plotting a coup a high ground maneuver?

    When 'the other side' were willing participants in the conspiracy, there's not much you can do to alleviate the mere appearance of a one sided show trial. Republicans didn't recommend, or volunteer, anyone to the committee that wasn't already going to be part of the investigation.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,168 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Who was plotting a coup? Trump gets accused of it but I actually saw his speech and he was explicitly calling for peaceful protest - unlike how the Left often both called for and carried out violence in the years 2020 and '21.

    I'm also old enough to remember how the Democrats and the Mainstream Media (although I repeat myself) assured us between 2016 and 2019 that Trump stole the 2016 election in concert with Vladimir Putin. That was a pack of lies. I'm also old enough to remember the end of 2018 when the Democrats were looking for a way to delay the nomination of Justice Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court and - oh just such a co-incidence 🙄 - along comes Christine Blaisey Ford with another pack of lies. Not only were her accusations deliberately vague so that they could not be falsified, but she lied about being afraid to fly (despite going to Hawaii every year on holidays) and the people she claimed were witnesses never attended parties with Ford and Kavanaugh, and said so despite being pressured to lie to back up Ford.

    It's difficult not perceive the January 6th hearings in the same way as the Trump-Russia hoax and the Kavanaugh-Ford hoax.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I sense the end of Trump's political career nearing.

    Good editorials, and I agree with a most of their counterpoints, even if a lot of it is pot calling the kettle black - the GOP turned Trey Gowdy into a comic book character that was gonna lock up Hillary etc. in years past, they've made their own TV miniserieseses. And as WSJ points out, the committee still is evidencing and reporting on the "foiling" of Trump by members of the GOP and his cabinet who were NOT in on his designs. What they get right is that the hearings shouldn't be trying to convey the idea that, the RNC or GOP needs to be 'run out of town,' it would be a needless distraction to the substance.

    The editorial boards of two papers owned by Rupert Murdoch’s News Corporation published scathing op-eds in light of Thursday’s bombshell congressional hearing on the January 6 Capitol riot.

    The Evidence of the Jan. 6 Committee

    It’s a reminder of the violence and how Trump betrayed his supporters.


    The House inquiry into the Jan. 6, 2021, Capitol riot launched its TV miniseries Thursday night, and the trick for parsing the proceedings is to keep two ideas in tension. Do Democrats want to unfairly besmirch the entire GOP with the Jan. 6 disgrace, while distracting voters from 8.6% inflation and $5-a-gallon gasoline? Yes.


    Yet did the committee offer a damning look at President Trump’s scheme to stay in office after losing the 2020 election? Also yes. Fresh video of the riot is a reminder that Jan. 6 was a brutal melee of fists and chemical sprays. “I was slipping in people’s blood,” said Capitol Police Officer Caroline Edwards. The footage is visceral, even if similar scenes were already on YouTube.


    The committee did offer some new and ugly details. “Aware of the rioters’ chants to ‘hang Mike Pence, ’” Rep. Liz Cheney said, “the President responded with this sentiment: Quote, maybe our supporters have the right idea. Mike Pence, quote, deserves it.” Who is the source of that quotation? The committee didn’t say.


    Ms. Cheney also said that Mr. Trump gave no orders to the National Guard on Jan. 6 to aid the besieged police, even as Mr. Pence was calling in the cavalry from his post at the Capitol. “There were two or three calls with Vice President Pence,” said Mark Milley, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, in audio testimony. “He issued very explicit, very direct, unambiguous orders.” In effect, “get the Guard down here, put down this situation.”

    Mr. Milley also spoke with White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows. “He said, we have to kill the narrative that the Vice President is making all the decisions,” Mr. Milley recalled.


    So was Mr. Pence in fact giving orders to the military, while the President watched the riot on TV and abdicated his responsibility as Commander-in-Chief? This was reported by the press soon after the riot, citing anonymous officials. But it’s something else to hear it from the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs.


    The same goes for the testimony about Mr. Trump’s flimsy theories of undetectable mass voter fraud. “I did not agree with the idea of saying the election was stolen and putting out this stuff, which I told the President was bull—,” Attorney General Bill Barr testified.


    Alex Cannon, a lawyer for the Trump campaign, recounted a conversation with Mr. Meadows: “I remember sharing with him that we weren’t finding anything that would be sufficient to change the results in any of the key states.” The point is that Mr. Trump was told by his own advisers that he lost the election but still deceived his supporters.


    The committee appears to be trying to build a case of “seditious conspiracy” against Mr. Trump, but here the evidence isn’t persuasive. Ms. Cheney offered no evidence that Mr. Trump communicated directly with the Oath Keepers or Proud Boys, who were the vanguard of the assault on the Capitol.

    The President spread falsehoods about the election. He invited supporters to Washington on Jan. 6, tweeting on Dec. 19 that it “will be wild!” He riled up the crowd and urged it to march on the Capitol. After violence began, he dawdled instead of sending help. Mr. Trump bears responsibility for the mayhem. But inspiring followers to march is not the same as leading a criminal conspiracy.


    One irony is that the largely Democratic committee’s evidence makes clear that Mr. Trump’s designs on overturning the election were foiled mainly by Republicans, including many in his Administration. White House lawyers threatened to resign if he fired Justice Department officials who didn’t indulge his fraud theories. GOP state legislators refused to name new electors. His judicial appointees rejected dubious fraud claims. Above all, his own Vice President stood up to Mr. Trump’s public and private pressure not to count electoral votes.


    The committee calls Jan. 6 an “attempted coup.” That makes it seem as if there was a chance of success. There wasn’t. It was an impossible plan hatched by screwballs, and it would have gone down as such if the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers hadn’t breached the Capitol. In the event, Congress still returned to fulfill its duty and count the electoral votes.

    *** [sic]

    Many Congressional Republicans dishonored themselves by voting to object to electors, even after the riot. But most of the GOP refused to go along. The person who owns Jan. 6 is Donald Trump. Remarkably, he seems to welcome this. “January 6th was not simply a protest,” he wrote Thursday on Truth Social, “it represented the greatest movement in the history of our Country to Make America Great Again.”


    Pity the people who went to Washington believing this nonsense, not least the more than 800 who have been charged with criminal offenses. Thursday’s hearing ended with video of rioters explaining their thinking, as their criminal charges flashed on the screen. “I did believe that the election was being stolen,” one man said, “and Trump asked us to come.”


    Mr. Trump betrayed his supporters by conning them on Jan. 6, and he is still doing it.

    Appeared in the June 11, 2022, print edition.

    Donald Trump, Democrats are obsessed with 2020 — GOP should look to the future

    The Jan. 6 Commission is a Democratic campaign ad, a thinly veiled partisan exercise — aired in primetime, with the cooperation of a liberal press — to bolster a failed Joe Biden presidency.


    But rather than ignore it or look to the future, Donald Trump, the King Lear of Mar-a-Lago, decided to tweet — er, Truth — yet another statement confirming that he refuses to accept reality. “January 6th was not simply a protest,” he wrote, “it represented the greatest movement in the history of our Country to Make America Great Again.”


    It wasn’t, of course. It was a national shame. One that neither Democrats nor Trump can stop obsessing over. It’s time for Republicans to move on.


    This isn’t 2016, when the country was sleepwalking toward a Hillary Clinton coronation, and Trump was the only one pugnacious enough to say it doesn’t have to be this way.


    He refused to accept that the southern border should be lawless and that China should be allowed to steal jobs. He knew, unapologetically, that the economy flourished under low taxes and little government interference. He pulled off one of the most jaw-dropping upsets in American political history, and — though the liberal media will never admit it — oversaw a term of mostly peace and prosperity.*


    But Trump has become a prisoner of his own ego. He can’t admit his tweeting and narcissism turned off millions. He won’t stop insisting that 2020 was “stolen” even though he’s offered no proof that it’s true.


    Respected officials like former Attorney General Bill Barr call his rants “nonsense.” This isn’t just about Liz Cheney. Mitch McConnell, Betsy DeVos, Mark Meadows — they all knew Trump was delusional. His own daughter and son-in-law testified it was bull.


    Trump’s response? He insults Barr, and dismisses Ivanka as “checked out.” He clings to more fantastical theories, such as Dinesh D’Souza’s debunked “2,000 Mules,” even as recounts in Arizona, Georgia and Wisconsin confirm Trump lost.


    Meanwhile, reports that Trump was pleased that the Jan. 6 crowd chanted for Vice President Mike Pence to be hanged — a truly reprehensible sentiment — makes him unworthy for the office. Trump can’t look past 2020. Let him remain there.


    Look forward! The 2024 field is rich. You have Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, former UN ambassador Nikki Haley … the list goes on. All candidates who embrace conservative policies without the preoccupations of the Don.


    Consider: Even if Trump, at 78, managed to win the presidency in 2024, who would work for him, now that he’s betrayed every competent person on his former staff?


    The motivations of the Democrats are purely political, but that doesn’t make the events of January 6 right. The best argument Trump’s people can cling to is that the Capitol building wasn’t properly secured. The committee would look far less partisan by scrutinizing these claims. But what’s the logic?


    You knew Trump was going to incite a mob, so you should have brought in more troops? Trump himself doesn’t deny that he wished the rioters had succeeded in overturning the election.


    Donald Trump lost in 2020. Joe Biden is a disaster as president. Both are true. The nation has been through enough pain and mismanagement for a generation. We need a fresh start.


    Tune out the Jan. 6 hearings and binge-watch the new season of “Stranger Things.” Unsubscribe from Trump’s daily emails begging for money. Then pick your favorite from a new crop of conservatives. Look to 2022, and 2024, and a new era. Let’s make America sane again.

    • *("Peace" is not "oh **** what crisis did he tweet now" every morning and night - OH)




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,984 ✭✭✭Polar101


    What's the point of these hearings? You'd have to have a functional democracy in order for any kind of justice to be served. This hearing is in a country which has 2 parties - who both think the others are loonies, so it's hard to see any useful outcome. Trump was impeached a couple of times, and it didn't seem to harm him in any way, so neither will this show.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    He lost .... not harmed in any way ?

    Its very rare in America for a President not to get a second term. He screwed up in a big way and he lost despite the decades of Republican gerrymandering. You may imagine that all the noise and bluster means he's widely popular - he's popular among a hardcore sect of people who have been dreaming of a civil war since they lost the last one.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,552 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    7 Democrats and 2 Republicans. It's not wrong to say one sides but when one of two parties embraces fascism, it doesn't leave a lot of viable alternatives.

    Trump has lived a life escaping the consequences of his actions. This will probably not be any different. It'd be great to see the grubby little nazi be held accountable but I don't see it happening.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Another late-night monologue or two this time from live thursday night

    I'll include Fallon for completeness but he pre-recorded his show seemingly, and he is kind of cringeworthy.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,717 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    jesus there really is no depth too low for Matt Gaetz to stoop down in to



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,518 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Two things that come across my Youtube feed almost every weekday is Jimmy Kimmel's opening monologue and Seth Meyers' A Closer Look, both of which lately deal almost exclusively with the ongoing clusterf*ck that is American politics and Trump v. democracy. Even though I agree with most everything they say, it just shows how politically charged the media landscape has become in America over the last 10 years where it's all over their late-night shows. SNL as well.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If the committee concludes that Trump committed a crime what happens then?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 434 ✭✭tooka


    Bizarre to see how bad American politics has gone, to see such hatred and anger and delusional behaviour is sad to watch.

    its sad to witness the fall of such a great country, but since 1988 the quality of American presidents and politicians has gotten worse year on year.

    there is not one politician left in America that is not bought and paid for, whether It be China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, big corporations, big unions.

    Take lynne Cheney, her dad is a complete war hawk who started two pointless wars which killed millions, created millions of refugees and ultimately made the Middle East an even more dangerous area.

    this woman stands 100% behind her father actions, and this is new hero of the anti trump crowd, you could not make it up.

    the democrat and republican parties are now a joke - trump, Biden, pelosi, meadows, Jordan, McCarthy, the squad, wtf ? A bunch of dangerous oafs and imbeciles.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,717 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There was a decision made by the Republican party to stand against social progress, it happened back in Reagans time when they decided to court the religious and the racists as their main constituency. Once that decision was made they were captured by the atavistic regressive tendancies latent in a country made up of religious refugees from Europe. Reason went out of politics from that day forward.

    As far as I am concerned, both the constitution of America and the politics of fear have doomed America to a day of re-conning. If justice is metered out to Trump and his cronies it will just feed the doom frenzy of the fanatics who have captured the narrative of American life.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The second day of hearings will begin at the top of the hour. All networks are to be carrying it now - including Fox News.


    Trump former campaign manager Bill Stepien was reported to testify today but he backed out this morning following a “family emergency.” Instead his counsel/attorney will appear in his stead to present statements




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    My apologies for not looking into it earlier: Stepien's family emergency was his wife going into labor. Congrats




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    this "process" just looks like another 'ol Dem hoax.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Running kangaroo courts is something a fascist government would do and ironically a US government doing this is an ethical reason to overthrow it (not a recommendation). The Dems need to cop on, they only need to be a normal party and they would do quite well but they are like the Amber Heard of the political world over the last few years.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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