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Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,035 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Your question has been answered repeatedly - you negotiate with Putin as you would anyone else. Either some concessions on sanctions, on territory, or on NATO. The idea that the Russians are currently in Ukraine with a goal of ethnic cleansing like the Serbs in the Balkans is so far removed from the truth. There is strategic value to them, in taking Ukrainian territory, in resources and in the ability to defend with a terrain advantage, and control of sea of Azov.

    If you believe Putin's reasoning for invading Ukraine and not having agreed peace terms to date is because he's "a murderer" then you are not even playing the same sport here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,035 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Its a good point that they wont speak out against the regime or its interests directly, but often they are free to maneuver in their own little boundaries like a pig in a pen. Sure they've been out on Russian news channels for months now talking about nuclear strikes on the west - these people put out far more extreme opinions than the kremlin, I wouldn't consider it a barometer of actual Russian government (i.e. Putin's circle).

    I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Duma members are deliberately radical so as to make Putin himself seem more rational, may play well to some domestically to know that the alternatives could be so much crazier.

    That all seems like whataboutery - whether posters here might try to use it as justification doesnt matter - the Duma's actions are not groundwork for war because the Duma is powerless, just a show



  • Registered Users Posts: 49 SomewhereInTheMiddle


    Presidential adviser Arestovych in 2017: Russia and US are battling for Europe, in particular on the territory of Ukraine:

    That's getting hot here...

    (please turn on subtitle translations)



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,035 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    The alternative path to peace is to try and beat the Russians in a proxy war - to date that has not happened. Maybe with enough time and weapons the Ukrainians will retake that territory. However to date the momentum has not been with them.

    Do you believe the Ukrainians can retake significant amounts of territory? personally I do not. The only option for peace besides a big Ukrainian counterattack, is a negotiated settlement.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    ...According to the Ukranians..


    I'd take that with a large pinch of salt..

    The same day they announced that general dying the other day they said they'd "practically ceased taking losses in the Ukraine"..



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭Field east


    It is not a show if Putin has ‘instructed ‘ it to begin the conversation. It looks ligitimate from a democraticperspective



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,684 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Presidential adviser Arestovych in 2017: Russia and US are battling for Europe, in particular on the territory of Ukraine:

    Presidential adviser Arestovych is full of crap and has no idea what he is talking about. For starters, Russia lost any battle for "Europe" about 30 years ago. As much as people love to portray every conflict as American imperialism, this has nothing to do with them.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,684 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl



    They are being aided, but there is a gaping chasm between what is happening and being a member of NATO, de facto or de jure.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,035 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Afghanistan was a very different scenario - the USSR lost as they tried to occupy a country with nothing in common with themselves, and guerilla tactics which they couldnt effectively counter.

    Ukraine is quite different - not only have Russia been supporting separatist movements in the East for close to a decade (or longer), but they are fighting a conventional standing army, not guerillas launching raids from the mountains of Afghanistan.

    As for time being on their side, unfortunately much of Ukraines manufacturing is done in the east, most farming in the south. The west is generally poorer than the east, and much less industrialised. Zelensky stated recently that Ukraine needs $7bn of external funding every month just to keep functioning, which I assume is excluding war materials. How many months will the west continue to fund the Ukraine exchequer? It cant go on indefinitely, especially as inflation and looming possibility of recession puts pressure on western countries finances.

    The Russians I'm sure arent much better with sanctions and parts shortages, however their factories are still intact, so whatever factories arent short of parts can still produce war materials (likely the minority of factories not facing shortages). They are self-sufficient in food and ag, and the Chinese are still trading with them. While their economy is likely struggling severely, it is nowhere near as bad as Ukrainian economic climate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,035 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    The only battling being done is for EU dependence. Dependent on either Russia or the US for petrochemicals and gas. Both have an interest in profiting off of Europe's lack of fuels. Russia's loss this year has been US' gain.

    We have no idea if Putin has instructed anything to be said or done by the Duma. Did he instruct them to go on rambling about nuclear strikes on every country under the sun on Russian news? The Duma get up to all kinds of mad stuff, they are headcases. The stuff that makes headlines here is only the half of it.

    I very much doubt Putin is instructing them to make token proposals such as these, ultimate power rests with him in Russia, for the Duma to push things like this ahead of Putin himself would be seen to undermine his authority if anything.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    But like, the UK are just repeating the Ukrainian numbers..the pentagon has said they're relying on the Ukrainian government for this information too..

    I'd say they might be slightly exaggerated..



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,529 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    The Ukrainian figure of 30,000 Russian dead seems plausible. Also, the Kremlin's total silence on losses for well over two months is very suspicious. If Russian losses are in fact low, why not release an official number? The total media silence for months makes it look like a touchy subject and as if they have something to hide.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,035 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Both sides have an interest in downplaying losses, not least for morale purposes, but also if you deny that a serviceman has been killed, you do not owe his family pensions/payments.

    Documented cases of this from both sides, but anecdotes dont give any idea to the scale of the problem.

    Russia likely has higher losses as its harder to attack than defend, but allegedly 10s of thousands of Ukrainians are in the encirclement around Severdonetsk/Lysychansk, so if that closes it could be a huge amount of losses (dead or captured) for Ukrainians either.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Well, in the Donbass anyway, aren't a lot of the fighters from the 2 republics, with Russia just providing support/artillery etc?..



  • Registered Users Posts: 49 SomewhereInTheMiddle


    That is not true. He is an official body, so he speaks on behalf of his country and current president of Ukraine V. Zelensky.

    If this shouldn't be treated as an official position of Ukraine, then they should have removed this video from the official Ukrainian Youtube channel. But it's still there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭myfreespirit


    Your post misrepresents what I wrote in plain English.

    The notion of "a goal of ethnic cleansing" was introduced by you. I neither mentioned it, nor alluded to it.

    Again, I perceive condescension- why?



  • Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭myfreespirit


    An interview with Oksana Pokalchuk, Amnesty International Ukraine on RTÉ radio this evening gave sickening details of investigations into war crimes committed by Russian soldiers in Ukraine, including widespread looting, sexual crimes and murder. Such is the depravity of the perpetrators that disabled people were targeted according to Oksana.

    Unspeakable crimes, as Cormac O hEadhra quite correctly described them.

    A comprehensive report is being prepared by Amnesty International.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,529 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Zelensky has addressed the topic of Ukrainian losses a few times and even spoke at length on the issue when he gave a pool interview to Russian journalists (the one that the Kremlin banned of course).

    The Russian silence on the subject definitely seems suspicious - I don't think they have said a single word on losses or injuries in almost three months.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,902 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Perhaps, but at least the Ukrainians are on their backs in theirs looking at the stars.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,440 ✭✭✭McGiver




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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 13,902 ✭✭✭✭josip


    I have. Still comfortable with my usage of it, unless you'd like to point out a flaw?



  • Registered Users Posts: 49 SomewhereInTheMiddle


    Live on that topic of Lithuanian independence (in Russian 💁‍♂️):

    So either it's just to threaten NATO, or a serious attempt to go further.



  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭BurgerFace


    I've thanked this post and I'd like to thank it again.

    Indeed you are very correct @Dohnjoe the discourse is for the most part a degenerative dichotomy. But one has to look at those who are 100% entrenched in the "Russia bad, West good" paradigm. If anyone questions the narrative then they are called bots, on the Kremlin payroll, you even have people on here saying "go back to Russia" to people who have probably never been there. You have @McGiver screaming at me that I'm a genocide denier and that he has reported me for such. The guy needs a valium, or a holiday, or both.

    One doesn't have to be a Putin cheerleader to question the Western narrative. Ivan Cooper, John Hume, Bernadette McAliskey were present at the slaughter in the Bogside and have always spoken out about the British barbarity. Does that make them "Ra-bots", "McGuinness-bots"?

    And yes you marched against The Iraq War. Millions did. What was the point? Saddam Hussein may have been a horrible thug but he was a CIA puppet (or asset as they like to sweetly say) until he outlived his purpose and was then used as a bogeyman/patsy. There was no problem with him in the 70's when he was supposedly terrorising his people. There was no problem with him in the 80's when he was gassing Iranians after the 1979 Revolution and the sickening Iraq-Iran war. He had to go when he failed to defeat Tehran and have western oil companies back in after Mossadegh had the audacity to kick them out.

    Now I won't lecture, but the Iraq war was going to happen no matter what. Hussein offered to surrender and even allow massive concessions to foreign oil companies. This was communicated via the Swiss Embassy. It was ignored. The invasion was on.

    Regarding Saddam supporters....again maybe you are right that they were just "my enemy's enemy" people. But no matter how brutal Hussein was there are 2 million people dead and millions more who would most likely rather he was still around than be visiting the graves of so many of their loved ones because old Saddam tried to "kill George Dubya's fcukin daddy".

    To me it's not about sides. It's about railing against people who think it's about sides.

    Why is a Russian soldier who is probably doing his sworn duty and who is killed, a scumbag whose demise is to be celebrated (and quite gleefully by some on here) but an American soldier who met the same fate in Vietnam or Afghanistan or Iraq is a "fallen hero" (defending our Western 'way' of life, again by some on here)?

    I don't see these people as savages. I don't. I never saw the world that was so dangerous and we were all so in danger of imminent death because of people like Castro, Ghadaffi, Hussein, or someone in the DPRK.

    You made an excellent point about "sides" and it resonated with me. You opposed interventions that I have done. Your reasons are your own. But when it comes to discussions of this nature it is literally impossible to not draw comparisons, yet when one does they are shut down because it's deemed irrelevant to the topic at hand. Dismissed as "whataboutery" by those who refuse to either recognise hypocrisy or cognitive dissonace.

    Perhaps I am an empath. I like to put myself in someone else's shoes. What if Russians are frightened of being attacked yet again? Are their fears understandable? People on here again talk about how pathetic the Russian Army is. If that's the case than why worry? If their equipment is garbage and their men are useless than why the need to have anything other than a few regiments of well-fed lads in Central or Eastern Europe and the job is a good 'un.Why the need to move ever close to Russia with bombs and barracks and bases? Unless of course there is an ulterior motive.


    OK @Dohnjoe I'll leave it at that.

    Bring on the accusations of being in a basement in Volgograd, slurping borscht with countless others before we get our 4 roubles for the month and a day out.

    Добрый вечер!



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,463 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Good article via RTE on the role of artillery in the conflict, and possible impact of deliveries of medium range artillery to Ukraine.

    https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2022/0607/1303352-us-uk-missile-systems-ukraine-russia-military-analysis/

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭Hobgoblin11


    watching Ireland v Ukraine and Ukraine have changed their tune, they now took the knee

    Dundalk, Co. Louth



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    I read this a few weeks ago. It's depressing (of course) but there's also an interesting quote in it apparently from one of those Russia-supported people's republic fighters involved in attack on Mariupol:

    But while Mariupol flourished, rebel-held Donetsk mouldered.

    When the rebels returned to Mariupol, Volodymyr, the paramedic, believed they were driven by revenge to destroy the city.


    "'If we live in ****, then you will live in **** as well,'" Volodymyr says they told him at a checkpoint as he finally escaped the city. "They just looked at us and envied how we lived."

    I wonder is that the kind of person in those "People's Republics" who is "welcoming" the invasion and pleased Putin is taking Ukraine in hand? I wouldn't have said that was a healthy pov at all or one that's going to bring forth a bright future.

    Any part of Ukraine that escapes the net and survives this ordeal inflicted on it is going to do much better than under Putin's + other KGB cronies guidance and will likely join the EU eventually too...(oh dear, I hope I don't upset anyone posting here predicting that?...)!

    Putin and co wither + corrupt everything they get their claws on + all they have is negative tactics to get ahead by destroying the work of others (e.g. spending billions upon billions trying to tear apart the EU that better men and women worked to build, trying to ruin and sabotage the Covid-19 response in the West and spread the virus about during the pandemic rather than switch that effort to the tougher job of improving Russia's own response).



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,684 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl



    His comments are from 2017, what on earth does he have to do with Zelensky or the current Ukrainian government.

    Normal countries don't remove all traces of material from presidential officials that they might disagree with.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭20silkcut


    The Soviet Union was bounded by a prison type wall in the centre of Berlin and a deadly barbed wire electrified fence complete with a death strip no man’s land and automatically trip wire engaged machine guns from the Barents Sea to the Adriatic. It was a massive prison. Yes it was driven by ideology but to have to go to such lengths to hold on to its population was a clear indication of the type of future it was offering.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭Field east


    A classic ‘whataboutary ‘ post if ever there was one. It is so far removed from what’s going on. When thousands are being maimed , mangled, buried alive , killed - including children , orphans , women , elderly , the sick, pregnant mothers - with ABSOLUTLY no discrimination shown. Then there is the total distraction/levelling of cities, villages , infrastructure and industrial facilities along with peppering very productive land with mines and bombs.

    and the absolute trash that you go on with



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