Fall of the Catholic Church

Kids have no say in the matter regardless that an inane argument.

Either the mountain moves, or you do. You choose which is more achievable for yourself.

Once religion is removed from schools, there will be more choice. I've no problem with that.

Schools are also oversubscribed.

If religion was gone tomorrow you've still no guarantee of getting into your nearest school.

Catchments also change. You might be the catchment for 3yrs but on the 4th year they change it excluding you or reducing your priority.

No it doesn't you're suggesting there are infinite resources. Can't possibly be true.

They didn't place new restrictions. You've created a set of restrictions you won't accept compromise on. No exposure to any faith. No travelling further than the nearest school.

It's not about separating them it's about getting them to work together for the common good and share resources - and your still haven't answered my question about that: Where's the deal breaker?

For some reason, you seem to be going out of the way to find and create obstacles and allegories to promote illusions of separation and exclusion where they really don't exist for some reason; instead of trying to tell me what you feel the positives to the community are to the current situation.

I'm thinking you don't actually see any but haven't realised it yet.

Where did I suggest unlimited resources. It is actually the very opposite of what I am saying. I accept that isn't unlimited resources, and as such it is how best we utilise the resources we have. Currently, RCC schools make up a vast majority of schools. To give non RCC equal opportunity and access would require the building of additional schools, which is a waste of finite resources.

Far better to simply remove religion from the current schools and the problem disappears.

I am aware that a school cannot discriminate, any more thankfully , but all that does is create the situation that when doing religion the non RCC kid has to be excluded. Either read a book in the corner of go to another room. Imagine that. 'Hey Mary, you are not like the rest of us, sit over there while I pay attention to all these kids since you have a problem with our beliefs'

That is what people here are advocating should happen to little kids in school every day. Imagine what is going through the kids head. Why I'm I so different Daddy. Why can't I join in with my class? What makes me different from everyone else? And this is supposed followers of Jesus that are advocating this treatment.

I was at St Anthony Novena in the Adam & Eve Church across from Four Courts last night.

Surprised how many was there , a beautiful church to be fair and it could probably hold 8/900 people , was two thirds full circa 600 at a guess. Lot of middle aged & older Dublin people from that neck of the woods, not exclusively though , was a number of 30/40 year olds and a few leaving cert types. The other main grouping was Indian /Sri Lankan peoples ( surprised how many of those).

Pleasant enough experience circa 50 minutes in a beautiful church, not everyone's cup of tea but brought a bit of calm to my busy life and i said a few prayers for some friends who asked me to say a prayer for them . Apparently on for the week.

If the communion and confirmation prep was being done outside school time, with perhaps a small cost involved, the numbers participating would plummet. This is exactly why the church holds onto its grip of primary schools so tightly.

Distance isn't the issue. ET schools are heavily oversubscribed, and all have local priority as their admission criteria, so anyone from a distance away has no realistic chance of getting a place.

Ahh FFS.

You effectively register your kid in a particular secondary school years before they start, but then they have an influx, they have to give preference to the siblings of kids already there, they have to give preference to kids in nearer catchment area so you are then fooked.

Then you have to scramble to find another school, you have to try and make sure that you can now gett access to buses but you only get a concession because the default route is to the school you can't now get into.

It is rich lambasting parents for not planning ahead when all our politicians, bar a few, our dept of education, our local planners do fook all planning ahead. 😡😡😡😡

Some of the people talking here are talking through their ar** when it comes to realising what our education system is like for many in this country.

Bollo* do we have enough school places or do you count sticking kids into prefabs in sports ground car parks for over three years as a school place, with access to a limited curriculum because they don't have facilities for labs, kitchens, etc.

You appear to know fook all about our current education system in a fair chunk of this country.

Finally some sense.

Tax payers, of course who ultimately pay all State related costs, which includes the professions needed for the functioning of the state, Nurses, Civil Service, Gardai etc etc. And of course Teachers. These positions have to be filled , regardless of who fill's them.

So perhaps start canvassing for a new one.

Honestly, it's as if you want someone else to sort your issues out. What have you done, apart from moan at the religious instruction being done in schools?

Saying an argument is not coherent is not an insult. It's saying that an argument is not coherent.

All we're hearing is the same old defence of the status quo at all costs we've heard again and again dozens if not hundreds of times before, and found lacking each time before. The proportion of even the most nominal of catholics-in-name-only is nowhere near enough to justify control of 89% of primary schools. The results of this year's census will make the status quo even more indefensible.

Diarmuid Martin, archbishop of by far the largest catholic diocese in the country talked a great game about divestment but did basically nothing. Meanwhile in places like Malahide, school principals unleashed a massive campaign of lies to create enough FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) to block all change. Dept of Education allowing the existing patrons to control the divestment process is a sick joke

In theory non-catholics in Ireland do not have lesser rights, in practice they do. Not just about enrolling your kids in school, either. Taxpayer-funded jobs should be open to everyone on an equal basis regardless of their religion, but 94% of primary schools will not employ non-christians. Non-christians cannot become a judge, President or member of the Council of State as they require religious oaths.

This state of affairs might have been tolerable in the 19th century but it's no longer the 19th century we are living in.

It's already been explained on this thread several times by other posters as well as myself.

Almost all Educate Together schools are oversubscribed. When they're oversubscribed they prioritise children who live within their catchment area.

There's no point saying people should travel to an oversubscribed school because local children will fill all the places and there will be no place for the child travelling from outside the area.

You are lambasting people for.. what, exactly? Not taking their child every morning to a school miles away they couldn't get enrolled in, then staging some sort of sit-in?

You have some amount of sheer cheek with the "lazy". Nobody is more lazy than the parents who want the two big catholic days out / excuses for a booze-up, but complain if the local parish priest asks them to so much as take their kid to mass a couple of times on the lead up to the big day... They're fine with the catholic sacraments as long as they don't have to do anything or make any sort of an effort.

You clearly have no experience whatsoever of secular schooling.

Perhaps you haven't heard, but there's a little bit of a housing issue all round Ireland, so many young couple have no real idea where they're going to be living in 4-5 years time. But I guess you'll enjoy your little lambasting of them for not predicting their landlords whims.

It's not about me, or my kids, or a 'new one'. It is about getting religion out of state schools, because that is the right thing to do.

What's your source for the increasing participation in sacraments in ET schools please?

That's certainly not my experience, but even if it was, there is no comparison. You can't compare two disparate groups of parents and assume same behviours.

Every school is NOT oversubscribed. Around here, the ET school is oversubscribed by 400% and one church school hasn't turned anyone away in years.

I'm aware of how school enrolments work.

The proportion of even the most nominal of catholics-in-name-only is nowhere near enough to justify control of 89% of primary schools.

This is being disingenuous. The fact that 100% of religious ethos schools are owned by the Church, is the reason why 89% of primary schools in Ireland are controlled by the Church. If Government actually wanted to, it could quadruple the amount of public funding provided for education and build so many schools that it would dwarf the 3,000 schools owned by the Church. Parents would then be able to choose between a religious education for their children, and the new alternative provided by the State.

Going by the numbers of parents who say they want more choice in education, this would be a more viable option than divestment.

In theory non-catholics in Ireland do not have lesser rights, in practice they do. Not just about enrolling your kids in school, either. Taxpayer-funded jobs should be open to everyone on an equal basis regardless of their religion, but 94% of primary schools will not employ non-christians.

No they don’t, not even in practice. They’re not taxpayer funded jobs, they are public jobs, and they generally are open to everyone on an equal basis without discrimination. Discrimination is only permissible in certain circumstances and it must be a reasonable means of achieving a legitimate aim, in accordance with existing Equality Acts legislation.

100% of primary schools cannot discriminate against candidates on the grounds of religion, only in exceptional circumstances. To do otherwise can land the Board of Management in hot water -

The Court held that this section should be “ascribed a narrow orbit and it can only avail an employer where the conditions in which it is expressed to operate actually apply.” The Court held that the school “did not adduce any evidence on which it could be held that the canvassing of the private views of candidates for the post in issue on the question of religious patronage and pluralism was reasonable or necessary in order to maintain the religious ethos of the school”. The Court also found that there was no evidence to suggest that “whatever views the Complainant had on that topic would impact on her capacity to act in good faith and with loyalty to the school.”

https://hayes-solicitors.ie/News/Religious-Discrimination-exemption-examined-in-a-case-involving-a-teacher-and-a-school