New LC

Icsics · 31-03-2022 8:31am #1

Surprised there’s not a thread on this already. And like the JC, the devil will be in the detail on this…namely not marking our own students!

Treppen · 31-03-2022 9:01am

Is anyone just getting apathetic about it all?

At this stage, you just have to let things fail before people realise their mistakes.

The fight over JC was long and hard and took its toll on teachers.

Not to mention trying to explain over and over to the non teaching "experts".

Random sample · 31-03-2022 10:06am

Apathetic is exactly how I feel about it.

We know the Junior cycle is a pile of crap. The only teachers who don't agree are the ones seconded to the JCT, who surprise surprise have not had to deal with it. Parents are now starting to realise it is a pile of crap, and are wondering how teachers let this happen... the same teachers who argued against it and were accused of fear of change and extra work.

What would motivate anyone to argue against the leaving cert changes?

Icsics · 31-03-2022 10:48am

For sure, we’re battle weary after the JC debacle. But unlike the JC, LC is a high stakes exam. And while parents & most kids couldn’t care less about the JC, it will be a very different story for the LC. I just hope our union have a plan, it will make convention interesting this yr

joe40 · 31-03-2022 11:05am

I teach in the North (Live in the south and kids go to school in the south) and felt like shouting at the radio. We had coursework, controlled assessment, teacher assessed components whatever you want to call it for years and it is not effective.

In my subject GCSE science and A-level Chemistry all teacher marked components have been removed. Everthing is now externally assessed. It is the only way to ensure fairness and standardisation.

The major benefit our system in the North has, is the fact that pupils can do module exams and very importantly these can be repeated. (Only one repeat allowed)

By the way overall I think leaving cert is a better than A-levels but I'm glad my youngsters will not have to go through the new LC. They're currently TY and 6th year.

If a pupil gets a bad result in a 5th year exam and does not have the opportunity to improve the grade in 6th year it will be a total demotivation.

amacca · 31-03-2022 7:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118860477#Comment_118860477

This is the type of stuff that gets completely brushed under the carpet by the Dr. Ciara Kelly Brigade in their moron quest for "fairness" that isn't fair at all.

The only thing that pisses me off is these gobshites are never held accountable for their own moves....whenever the incoming nonsense is scrapped they will screaming I told you so for clicks and listenership too despite the mess being partially their fault....

Rosita · 31-03-2022 10:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118860207#Comment_118860207

Well said. The new JC is even boring to teach. Hard to imagine the students being inspired.

dory · 31-03-2022 10:12pm

I feel very apathetic about the whole thing. My subject , Irish, has been absolutely ruined by the JC. I now get asked regularly “why do they want us to hate the language” and I have nothing to say. I would hate the language if I had had to do that too.

I presume with the new LC it will be just as bad. I’m going out on secondment soon (not to JCT!) and am unlikely to return.

am_zarathustra · 01-04-2022 7:32am

The desire to reform is in itself flawed. We underspend and overperform in education, always have. Retention being a particular area we excel in, though that's a separate thread.

No other public service can say this, well maybe revenue! Why reform what works! Smaller classes and more resources (and I mean just money for schools to spend on what they need not whatever rubbish some lad in athlone heard about on a jaunt) would have been a better use of money. We might not be facing an acute teaching crisis then

acequion · 01-04-2022 7:05pm

Wow but the apathy is indeed tangible! I think it's exactly 9 years since Ruari Quinn first announced to us all, via his minions in the media, his plans for a reformed JC. The claws were out immediately. This T&L forum ran away with itself with teachers clamouring to vent their indignation and vows to go to battle. And go to battle we did. And though unable to stop the onslaught, we at least achieved some damage limitation. But where are all those warriors now? Retired? Battle weary?

This time. A very high stakes exam and much more at stake for the student and you'd wonder do teachers even care any more?

This stunt, announced again via the media, is just more political opportunism and is every bit as potentially damaging as the car crash that is the reformed Junior Cycle. The buzz words sound great.Student centered and all that jazz. Teacher assessed components. Learning outcomes again maybe! But those of us who actually teach every day in underfunded Irish schools know that it's all smoke and mirrors. They are blatantly taking advantage of teacher good will during the pandemic and don't even have the decency to allow the dust to settle and let schools settle back again before announcing this latest "reform".

Ireland has become all the more conservative since Ruari first went on the rampage. The predominant culture now is to go along with the ruling elite ie Government /Media, even if through gritted teeth. So though we may hear of a few rants at teacher convention season, I suspect that's all it will be.Maybe a mandate to strike but little more. A mandate to strike means SFA these days.

Personally I have one year left to retirement. So I am massively relieved that I'll avoid this car crash. But I still care. I've given my life to this profession and it's with a heavy heart that I see standards being destroyed by opportunist politicians, social media wannabes and the general teacher bashing population who just love to see teachers being put on the spot. I wonder how soon the teachers bashers will arrive on this thread?

Treppen · 01-04-2022 9:19pm

Interesting, maybe we should have accepted the original Ruairi Quinn Junior Cycle and assessed it 100% in house. At least then it would have shown up the sham it was... Unfortunately by doing the right thing, the Junior Cycle will scrape by and be declared a success.

I'm more and more of the opinion that sometimes you have to let things fail for people to learn.

In saying all that , if it comes down to a union vote I'll always oppose the government position, simply because they are full of you know what.

2011abc · 02-04-2022 2:14pm

Is there any kind of 'rationale' behind reducing Maths/Irish/English from 2 to 1 paper in JC?How the heck can this claim to be raising standards?

Maybe they dont want to ...Not necessarily a coincidence what Acequon says above :

"Ireland has become all the more conservative since Ruari first went on the rampage. The predominant culture now is to go along with the ruling elite ie Government /Media, even if through gritted teeth. So though we may hear of a few rants at teacher convention season, I suspect that's all it will be."

The great dumbing down continues apace?

joe40 · 02-04-2022 6:05pm

For me the main education reforms should be the provision of a properly resourced and valued vocational educational sector. This should not be seen as the poor relation for kids that won't perform as well in traditional exams. It should be valued and appropriately assessed to a high standard but running alongside the traditional exam options.

This one size fits all doesn't work.

And also sort out the CAO points system.

History Queen · 04-04-2022 9:49pm

I don't know how to respond to this thread in a coherent way such is the depth of my anger at the absolute abandonment of even a pretence of interest in education from the minister and her department. I'll post again when I can verbalise my thoughts properly, but right now I'm just angry, frustrated and disgusted.

rainbowtrout · 05-04-2022 9:00am

"Teachers overinflated grades in the accredited grades process. Teachers are bad"

"Teachers will be tasked with assessing their own students for the reformed Leaving Cert. This reform is good"

Car crash incoming in.........

joebloggs32 · 05-04-2022 10:26pm

As night follows day this "reform" was always coming to follow up on the HC reform. The sh1tshow that is passing for reform at junior cycle is leaving students unprepared for the Leaving cert now, so they had to double down.

Treppen · 07-04-2022 7:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886594#Comment_118886594

I wouldn't be surprised if they are purposefully changing the LC to ape the JC just to cover up how shite the JC is.

I think the problem Is students are too stressed at third level and primary , far too much rote learning going on there. 🤣

If the department has to dig a hole twice as big as the previous hole, how big will the hole be when education reform is complete?

HazeDoll · 09-04-2022 2:39pm

In 2019, 196 students got 625 points.

In 2020 that jumped to 419.

On 2121, it more than doubled again to 910.

What I want to know is, why haven't we been given a massive payrise as a reward for these miraculous achievements in education?

Here's what I'm planning on doing about the new LC. I'm planning on not caring. I ranted and railed and pointed out all the obvious things that are wrong with the new JC (I teach English, we were doing the new course since 2014 ) and it just made me furious and defeated.

I'm not going to bother my arse with the new LC.

I'm going to just go along with it.

"Whatever you say! You're the expert!" I'll say to the enthusiastic little fools sent out to deliver the inservices. If I have to assess any of my students' work, they'll all do very well indeed. If anybody thinks their marks are unrealistic they can bloody well assess them themselves.

noplacehere · 20-04-2022 8:16pm

I am under half way through my career. I adore teaching. I have fought. I’m in the union. I’ve been to congress. I’ve worked.

Covid was… unbelievable. The department is shite. The lack of respect by our own employers, the department is unreal. Our recent ministers seem to actively hate teachers. Schools and current management ‘training’ is burning teachers out at a rate of knots, particularly the good ones who are trying to pick up the pieces and implement the rubbish we are sent to implement

One of my subjects is music . After that last announcement re losing my Easter break I am honestly looking at options of going back to college in a few years time for a career change. It’s going to be a **** show and it will be our fault. It’s always the teachers fault

I might have less holidays but this isn’t enjoyable anymore and it hurts to stand in a class trying to justify things to students and parents when you don’t remotely believe in them yourself

I don’t have the energy to fight the LC

RealJohn · 21-04-2022 8:15am

We’re expecting our first in August. I’m giving serious consideration to packing teaching in, being a stay-at-home dad, and then homeschooling the child(ren) when the time comes.

It’ll save on childcare and they might get an actual education.

(I’ll probably back out of this plan, but it sounds nice right now.)

spurious · 21-04-2022 8:17am

"Money, money money" as with all 'reform' in Irish education.

gaiscioch · 21-04-2022 11:10am

The five stages of grief, lads: denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.[ https://www.verywellmind.com/five-stages-of-grief-4175361]

I'm on the acceptance stage. Desist from your arrant rebellion and dispel these outdated, ridiculous, pie-in-the-sky notions about schools being about educating, inspiring and enlightening people. Bad is good; good is bad. Embrace the system. Tick those boxes, attend those in-services and, most importantly, update your buzzword list every six months. New buzzwords = new educational techniques. Fact, like. And less of your negative thoughts like "Sure, I've been teaching like that for years but now they've given it a new name!". Good teachers are good administrators; good administrators are good teachers. Yellow-pack teaching in 1990 = gold-standard teaching in 2022. The whole education reform process is being undermined by these lunatic old-fashioned notions which demand that knowledge, analysis, thought, reflection, heart, spirit, inspiration and passion play a central role in educating children. A particularly pernicious fifth column are those who believe that education is central to developing personal freedom, increasing life opportunities and changing lives. Like, did you ever hear such absolute raiméis in all your living days? Fecking hippy teachers - you can bet they wear tweed jackets, smoke pipes, wear caps, speak Irish, ride bicycles, vote for the Green Party and believe all that climate change nonsense, too!

Perhaps a bit of Clockwork Orange-style aversion therapy might be useful in freeing the system from these old-style scholar-teachers and their subversive notions? Instead of the Ludovico Technique, we could have the Quinn Technique in honour of the great government minister who began this glorious reform?

At any rate, I'm immensely impressed by the academic standard of the average 5th-year student every September. Such erudition as they enter the existing Leaving Certificate, with its requirement to write a 7-page analysis of a historical event, from the experience of writing a very challenging 6-line account of a historical event in the reformed Junior Cycle. What heartless monster would deny that freeing children from the burden of knowledge is progress? When it comes to our impending glorious reform of LC, as Yazz did sing back in the day, 'The only way is up!".

gaiscioch · 21-04-2022 11:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118863735#Comment_118863735

I thought they were meant to teach themselves or something? Oops!

Treppen · 21-04-2022 12:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118955859#Comment_118955859

Guide on the side....

BINGOOOO

Icsics · 28-04-2022 10:24pm

I see the minister is in Killarney at the JMB conference, peddling her wares & getting an enthusiastic hearing no doubt!

Treppen · 30-04-2022 11:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118991056#Comment_118991056

Kinda getting sick of the almighty JMB .

3 times in the last 2 years we've heard management bleeting about "the teaching unions need to do something about this".

Despite the fact that they left the Union years ago, and happily take guidance from the JMB on what's the latest fad and how they should proceed in running their school (making sure to pretend to consult staff with a BS online survey, and never let it be discussed in staff meetings).

Trying to eat their cake and have it too.

Icsics · 30-04-2022 3:15pm

Oh but Principals didn’t leave the union, they have a foot in both camps. The JMB is a de facto union & is actually running schools. They’ve embraced this car crash LCert so we’re in for exciting times….again!

Dickie10 · 03-05-2022 9:42pm

I believe they may be trying divide and conquer approach, let the old guard who put up a fight retire off and the younger teachers left scrapping it out with each other on 10,11, 12 hour CIDS if there lucky and most kept dangling over just their job being there in a few months. thats the stuff that will make sure teachers cant unite to fight anything they bring in.

Bobtheman · 13-05-2022 1:23pm

I think not having two papers at the end of LC English is a great idea but no sure if doing paper 1 at the end of fifth year is a good idea. Id put paper 2 there or a mix of both.

As to continous assessment doing anything beyond 20% is asking for trouble.

Teachers should not correct unless they get a sizeable pay increase. At least 7%

That won't happen so tell them to **** off

Treppen · 13-05-2022 2:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119057062#Comment_119057062

No I think if you accept 0.01% teacher assessment, then the department will come back and take as much as possible... Then put it on the negotiation table for future pay cuts/rises.

Remember Travers negotiations, when junior cert was going to be teacher assessed. We did well to escape with the meaningless CBAs.

Remember when they said that orals and practicals would be on during Easter just as a COVID measure... Now it's here to stay.

Remember when calculated grades were a temporary measure... Now they're trying to bring in teacher assessment with a load of BS about 'moderation' of samples.

Remember, no paycuts for serving teachers, then they slashed new teachers pay and we have to continuously fight to get it back... even at that, inflation has ran ahead. Plus it was teachers who got blamed for this. Anything goes wrong with teacher assessment.... guess who's fault it'll be.

Also the new pension scheme, you might think it just affect NQTs but quite a few teachers on the old scheme got kicked into it during COVID as they lost the 26week continuance.

As per usual, soon enough most of us here we'll be retired off early to make way for further paycuts and changes to conditions.

Wouldn't trust the department to keep any agreement.

Bobtheman · 13-05-2022 3:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119057341#Comment_119057341

You have a point but its more my fellow union members I worry about.

They have shown a real lack of backbone.

Personally i think most union members would be bought off with 3/4%

Bobtheman · 13-05-2022 3:57pm

Personally I hope to be retired in 2 years when im 58 so I won't be around when the **** hits the fan

Treppen · 14-05-2022 8:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119057778#Comment_119057778

And I guarantee the same Union members would take the 3%.... then moan about all the extra paperwork, then moan that " the unions should be doing something about it" 🤣.

Bobtheman · 14-05-2022 10:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119059745#Comment_119059745

Yes my friend. Sad but true. I personally am willing to go on strike for NQTs or to prevent bullshit reforms but I dont see NQTs being interested in strikes.

To be fair to them they face exorbitant rents and even if Dual pay scales disappeared - rent would still be a massive issue. But ending dual pay scales would help.

Anyway I continue to fight the good fight.

Treppen · 14-05-2022 11:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119060117#Comment_119060117

I think there's also a little bit of fear on behalf of NQTs with regard to striking. Long ago the principal or VP would be out striking with us, but when that changed its become a bit of 'them Vs us' and some NQTs want to be seen to tow the party line with school.

Before we used be all teachers.

Now it's Principals VS AP Middle Management VS Teachers Vs NQT Teachers.

Comer1 · 08-06-2022 7:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119060334#Comment_119060334

In our school at least, most if not all of the NQTs are not in a union, so they sit at home while we march up and down outside the school, for their cause, in the cold, and they get paid for their day off work while we don't. Doesn't make sense to me.

Treppen · 09-06-2022 11:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119175862#Comment_119175862

One our senior staff had a go at them for not being in the Union, along the lines of 'ffs lads do ye not realise we are out on the street for ye' so I think that converted a good few over. The rep politely and discreetly asked if they'd like the forms too.

I think you need to be seen to be holding Union meetings in your school (even if it is just a rant fest sometimes 😁).

But yes leaving Cycle is coming down the tracks. And it'll hit us before we realise it.... and inevitably there will be people asking "why weren't we consulted on this!!".

Bobtheman · 09-06-2022 3:53pm

Im getting to the point of washing my hands of NQTs. They don't seem interested in strikes so let them sweat in the heat.

To be fair even if the pay gap ended in the morning they probably still could not afford a house or place to rent.

Im voting for the shinners. They can't do much worse.

Treppen · 09-06-2022 4:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119180049#Comment_119180049

I suppose I'd be of the same opinion although an attack on one is an attack on all. Just out of spite I'll always go against anything the department try and implement.

deiseindublin · 11-06-2022 6:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119180049#Comment_119180049

It will be interesting to see next GE how accurate the current polls are. I'm not sure that all rooting for SF in the opinion polls will actually transpire when it comes to the ballot box.

pandoraj09 · 12-06-2022 12:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119057799#Comment_119057799

Me too!!! Its the only thing that keeps me going in the job...the thought that in the not too distant future I'll be done..

gaiscioch · 20-09-2023 8:09am

Hot off the presses ar maidin: 'Leaving Cert: Revised reform plans do not include teacher-based assessment Revised subjects - including biology, physics, chemistry and business - will include externally assessed project work or practicals'

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/education/2023/09/20/leaving-cert-norma-foley-to-accelerate-reforms-without-teacher-based-assessment/

History Queen · 20-09-2023 8:14am

Did you hear Norma on Newstalk this morning? She was adamant that the ultimate vision is still teacher assessment but that it is just on hold for now. Dog and bone spring to mind.

Bobtheman · 20-09-2023 12:52pm

I can't see teachers voting to assess their own pupils unless we get a huge pay increase.

I can't see that happening.

Morale is low. I can't find a teacher who thinks the JC doesn't have major flaws but yet the review said we all love it?!

While I never trust my fellow teachers not to sell out - countless examples - so far there is unity on this.

It seems the issue will be dealt with post election and personally I don't think it will be high on the agenda of a SF government.

noplacehere · 20-09-2023 6:31pm

I filled in that review and I was not positive. I do wonder about these reviews to be honest. Fascinating how they come out with that suits the department.

My analysis of the junior cycle is that it’s a heap of shite. It has actually increased student anxiety which is quite an achievement considering the push for continuous assessment. It has alienated the very good hard working students who aren’t getting the distinctions and are disengaging/disappointed as a result. It’s rewarding students who did sfa and are stunned at the grades they manage to come out with.

Bobtheman · 29-09-2023 8:11pm

Anybody familiar with paid for academic research knows that those who write the cheques generally get what they pay for. What they want.

Bobtheman · 29-09-2023 8:17pm

Deleted text

joebloggs32 · 29-09-2023 10:35pm

By the time this so called investigation into the impact of AI is complete Norma will be well gone.

Hopefully the next minister will be able to read the room when it comes to teachers views on assessing their own standards.

Treppen · 21-10-2023 11:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175164#Comment_121175164

Teachers views will never be listened to, going by past 'surveys'.

It'll be 3rd level colleges and media that will decide

Comer1 · 22-10-2023 2:56pm

From Circular S71 23:

Important information in relation to the move to the digital completion and submission of coursework for Leaving Certificate 2025 examinations in the following subjects:

• Home Economics, Scientific and Social

• Geography

• History

• Religious Education

Move to digital completion and submission of coursework booklets 2025

In the case of the more recently introduced coursework components which require candidates to submit a reporting booklet, for Leaving Certificate examinations, all booklets have been designed in digital format. Candidates complete their reporting booklet digitally and it is submitted to the SEC using the Schools Portal from where it is transferred to the online marking platform for marking with the written examination. This has the benefit of introducing a more candidate friendly format to assessment but also reduces the volume of paper and thus is more environmentally sustainable and is an element of the SEC’s digital migration strategy which has seen the migration of many services and communications to digital format in recent years.

We have four computer rooms and with the demands of Computer Science, CBAs, DCG, LCVP, TY/JC computer studies, plus the day to day demands for PC access in all subjects, we still won't have sufficient I.T. facilities to cater for this change. It's going to be a challenge for schools to accommodate these requirements..

History Queen · 22-10-2023 8:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121271086#Comment_121271086

Don't worry. I'm sure the Department of Education and the SEC have thought about this and come up with a simple solution AND that said solution will be rolled out and explained on time and in an efficent manner.

It won't be a case of them not considering the realities of schools and deciding they really should consider the real world impact after the fact, or when there are teachers and students stressed out in schools all over the country. That would never happen. I have full faith.

🫠

New LC

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