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Sweden avoiding lockdown

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,509 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    The problem with the pandemic was not simply overcrowding.

    That you think it does illustrates, what I said earlier your opinion is too simplistic.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I don't need to do anything, you forget - my presence here is entirely optional.

    That's some twisting of my point there. I congratulate you on it. I never said internet being taken away due to public health. I said, hypothetically, due to power outage. I am sure people would be up in arms about that.

    I am constantly amazed at how what I type can be misinterpreted - nothing I have said belongs in the CT forum, that's just a lazy attempt at discrediting. Now, granted, I do understand that text can be misread or misinterpreted but the level of it on this forum does amaze me.

    Name one US state or country (Florida, Texas etc, Sweden, Japan) where they had no/short lockdowns where some of these other problems you refer to occurred? And, what is the nature of these problems?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,259 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    yes.......yes you did? are you trying to further prove my point on purpose or what?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,509 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Name one US state or country (Florida, Texas etc, Sweden, Japan) where they had no/short lockdowns where some of these other problems you refer to occurred? And, what is the nature of these problems?

    You mean like this...

    What's happening in Stockholm? 

    Stockholm on Wednesday reported that its 160 care beds were 99 percent full. The region has issued a 'hemmaställan', a formal call for help to the health board, which will in turn be sent to the Swedish Armed Forces, who may be able to provide doctors and medical equipment.

    Stockholm's hospitals director Björn Eriksson told Dagens Nyheter that it was primarily a lack of trained staff that was limiting the number of intensive care places.  



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I said, in reply to you "The problem...was not simply overcrowding" - OTHER problems. You mention the very point I asked you not to. Again, not reading my posts.




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  • Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    There are many posters that I am trying to reply to.

    I think the point I was making originally was that if the logic of lockdown was to prevent health system strain then we ought to lockdown every winter, because they are strained every winter. I then posted links prior to covid where health system was under strain.

    I am not sure where the confusion is?

    But, I am old and I find this replying to multiple people very tiring. I leave now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,259 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    thats just an excuse, you were replying to my post directly and you well know it

    and no, my point was that it was to limit extra strain on an already strained system.

    coincidence that you want to bow out when youre arguments have been beaten.........



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,509 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    You were implying that COVID was no different to every other winter surge. It wasn't.

    They don't set up field hospitals every winter, or run out of staff.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I've been wanting to bow out before I raised my argument earlier today. READ my original post from earlier :). Oh well, live and learn.

    Also, I've not been 'beaten'. My mind has not changed. And your attempts, whilst I admire them - have not worked (any of you). :)

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170640/#Comment_119170640



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,509 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    You don't need to write a novel to make your point.

    Your point is still overly simplistic.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,212 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    This idea that Tegnell and Co. didn`t want to use lockdown because it would impinge on the freedoms of choice of the population is just another load of cobblers attempting to rewrite history hoping to distract that Sweden`s initial 2020 strategy was to do with anything other than acquiring herd immunity.

    Their was no freedom of choice for parents to keep children infected with the virus home from school. By doing so parents were liable to prosecution and the possibility of their children being removed from their care by child services. The cynicism behind this was exposed by the emails acquired under freedom of information between Tegnell and his Finnish counterpart Mika Salminen.

    Tegnell commented "One point would be to keep schools open to reach herd immunity faster" Salminen replied that Finland had considered this but rejected it because "over time, the children are still going to spread the infection" and that their modelling suggested that closing schools would reduce the spread of the virus among the elderly by about 10%. Tegnell`s reply " 10% might be worth it" and kept the schools open, insisting on full attendance under threat of prosecution and children taken into care for non-compliance.

    Freedom of choice was never a consideration so no point at this stage in attempting to dress it up as such. It was nothing other than a reckless experiment lead by Giesecke, (who was not even a state official when it was cobbled together), and "his boys" Tegnell and Carlson of the FHM that caused needless deaths, and would have caused even more had the local authorities not put a stop to it in October 2020 when a second wave was sweeping through Sweden and Tegnell intended dropping care home restrictions, increasing the numbers allowed to meet in public and telling the vulnerable it was safe to again mingle in general society.



  • Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭therapist3


    Simply the data set is the world with before, during, after and percentage comparisons to themselves



  • Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭therapist3


    But yet you remain selective and exclusionary almost like you want to bias the discussion by excluding countries that don't fit the Sweden = bloodbath narrative

    Oh yeah, by the way covid reached every country and continent even Antarctica, therefore excluding any country is to malign your dataset



  • Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭therapist3


    Except I'm not, I'm asking for a full dataset not a maligned biased one



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,827 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    It's all up on worldindata using the links provided, go nuts in building your fantasy, I'm sure it'll be funny.



  • Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭therapist3


    Apart from when you click into the links it doesn't and only displays Sweden and Denmark.

    Selective sampling is no sampling at all, it's agenda driven to skew data and opinion

    There has been no international demonisation of Sweden which says more about their policies and outcomes than anything else

    If it wasn't successful people would be queuing up to knock 7 shades of shít outta them but they are not so Sweden goes unchallenged because it cannot be challenged



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,212 ✭✭✭✭charlie14



    The simple unavoidable truths that you are attempting to run away from is that of the four Nordic nations, the three that border Sweden did not go chasing herd immunity, and while Sweden was doing so in 2020 it had multiple deaths compared to the other three. Sweden`s own health authority accept that those multiple deaths were due to nothing other than Covid.

    I believe I have been very patient answering your posts and providing you with unbiased verifiable data and reports even though you have repeatedly ignored them. So one simple question for you.

    For four countries that border each other with so much in common, historically, geographically, even in language, that have virtually the same percentage of their population in the age category most at risk from the virus, then other than one of them chasing herd immunity what other reason do you see for the multiples of Covid deaths in Sweden during that period compared to the other three ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    edit: never mind - couldn't be bothered



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,827 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Do you know how to use the Internet?

    If you can't use those websites then clearly your expertise in the area is so low that any opinion you have is utterly worthless.

    This is a very weird attempt at running away from an abundance of data.



  • Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭therapist3


    Four countries is not the world, sheesh.

    The world experienced and is still experiencing covid.

    You need to admit this to yourself and if you can't you have no objectivity which undermines everything you say



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  • Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭therapist3


    The irony is I followed your references only to find a comparison with two countries only.

    That if anything exposes your inabilities



  • Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭therapist3


    Apart from the fact the references don't lead to the data advanced which is effectively obfuscation and running away from the question



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,212 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Your nonsense on others being biased and having no objectivity is laughable. You have been provided with verifiable statistics, data and reports, (all of which you have ignored as they do not suit your narrative), and you have nothing to back up any of your theories other than some vague ideas rattling around in your own head.

    By refusing to answer the question you have admitted that you have nothing to explain why Sweden who chased herd immunity during 2020 had 10,003 Covid deaths, while Norway had 440, Finland 556, and Denmark 1,269. Adjusted for population size Sweden in 2020 when chasing herd immunity had X12 times the deaths of Norway, X9.6 times those of Finland and X4.5 times those of Denmark.

    Unless you can find four neighbouring countries that have as much in common as the Nordic states, where one chased herd immunity and the other three did not, that counters those statistics then all you are doing here is wasting peoples time. If you want to keep on wasting your own time looking around the world for those statistics that`s up to you because they do not exists. Nowhere else was callous or stupid enough to follow Sweden`s strategy for any length of time before seeing how inane it was and doing an about turn.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,212 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    FFS. just Google Our World In Data Covid. it`s that simple.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,827 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    You have to be winding people up, click on the links, add any country you wish, references are all there on the site and different sources can be used. If you don't like worldindata, other websites like worldmeters, reuters or europa will let you browse as well.

    Honestly, do you know how websites work?



  • Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭therapist3


    Again with the 4 country narrative, the world is not 4 countries

    Nobody has provided anything that's the entire point thus those must be incapable of doing such

    If you can't prosecute your point you have no case



  • Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭therapist3


    If it's that simple why has everyone failed to produce what you cite, the only conclusion can be is that the data does not support the point



  • Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭therapist3


    Again if you know all this why is it that you cannot provide a reference. The only conclusion can be that the data will invalidate your view so fail at every turn to provide anything. Then to absolve yourself you channel victim blaming and shift blame onto me because of your own failure



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,827 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    The point is you were supplied the data to manipulate as you wish and are now running away from engaging with the data like a child would. It's pretty hilarious.

    If you don't understand how websites work just say so and someone might be able to help you with it, put the big boy pants on.

    As said, this running away is utterly bizarre, even Google will show you the data and sources with a few search terms.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,212 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    LOL As opposed to you that has no idea other than some vague notion in your own head as to what you are trying to say that you have not produced a single piece of data to back up ?

    Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression earlier. No need for you to restrict yourself to 4 countries. Pick as many as you like that border each other who historically and culturally, even in language, have so much in common where the percentage of their populations are the same by age for those most at risk from this virus, where one has chased herd immunity and the rest have not that counter the verifiable statistics you have been provided with regarding the Nordic Nations.

    In other words if you cannot provide even a shred of evidence to back up your own vague notions, then stop whinging about others that have provided reams showing the absurdity of your pie in the sky.



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