Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

You alluded to it when you mentioned how negotiations failed with Mladic et al and they were only stopped when they were brought to heel by bombings of Belgrade. That they were murderers and negotiations with murderers dont work etc.

The difference is, Serbs in Yugoslavia had a goal first and foremost of ethnic cleansing. The Russians in Ukraine have strategic goals, as eastern Ukraine has much strategic and material (resources) value.

If you say I misrepresent what you wrote, then please explain what you do mean. So far all your posts have mentioned how we cannot negotiate with murderers etc. What have I got wrong?

In fairness, the few individuals claiming that nothing has been done wrong, the other side are worse are in the absolute minority and are basically dismissed outright.

The problem in the discussion is when certain facts come up that either portray Ukraine in a bad light, or show that the military situation is not looking good, there are people with a tendency to cry bot. Not aimed at you, however there are people in general who as you said see it as my side v your side, almost like sports teams. 'Any negative news about my team means that you support the other' - which is wrong and it ruins all discussion.

My point concerns those individuals who find ways to systematically find fault with Ukraine, and those that support it. People are being blown to bits, but what really "irks" these individuals are the levels of support those people are receiving. From the "other side". A side they think is worse, but can't express it directly given the circumstances.

So they manifest it with contrarianism and pedantry and opening new troll accounts and so on.

Can you answer my question without accusing me of being shaped by Russian propaganda?

Why would Russia ever just up sticks and leave without some kind of peace deal in place? If as you say sanctions are rarely reversed then that is even more reason for them to not only stay, but continue to push on. The damage is done and if sanctions wont be lifted then there is no real point in voluntarily leaving.

How long until this collapse? Wasn't their economy due to collapse in March? And April? And May? It seems like the prediction just keeps getting pushed out further and further.

As for deindustrialising back to 1800s, lol. You are very naive if you think that will happen. Russia still has access to Chinese markets incl Chinese semiconductors - while supply chains will need drastically overhauled for parts sourced from Europe and US, there are alternatives for most things. They will not be without cars or tractors or trains or planes in the long run. Not western quality stuff, but a far far cry from the 19th century.

How many more weapons need sent to Ukrainians before they begin to retake ground and push the Russians back? Russians are still very slowly taking Severodonetsk

Where am I blaming the victims for whats happening?

Nor do I 'cheer' for Russians, however I recognise that a strategy of sending troops to the meatgrinder with the hope that eventually the Russian economy will collapse and then they all go home is naive at best. You seem to be treating this war like a football match of my team vs your team. There are no teams, its just politics.

Putin is still negotiating with European leaders (and Turkey re: grain blockade), though there doesnt seem to be much reporting anywhere on status of Ukraine-Russia talks or even the prospect of them resuming other than that quote from zelensky.

Again, even the US admit that diplomacy and a negotiated settlement will be the likely end to this war. If even the US are no longer planning to drive the Russians out of Ukraine (through arms supplies), why would you think that will be the case?

Ukraine and Russia were/ are probably the 2 most corrupt countries in Europe - except Russia has oil and gas wealth ...

Of course the Americans were training the Ukrainians for the last 8 years - Russia invaded ( INVADED ) them 8 years ago ,and Ukrainian neutrality didn't help much ...

I don't think the Ukrainians were really capable of going on the offensive in 2018 or 2021 ... But the Ukrainians were expecting/fearing to be invaded this spring ... So they were building their defensive capabilities... I don't think big bad Russia was ever worried about being attacked ...

As pointed out before a lot of Russians outside the metro areas are very self sufficient with producing their own food, so sanctions won't be felt there as much as in the cities. Moscow could descend into another bloody revolution and it wouldn't affect most Russians.

Moscow has been failing to deliver domestically for decades so like Brexiters blamed the EU for the increasing English poverty Russia has blamed outsiders and conspirators.

Britain and Russia talk in grandiose terms about taking back control as if it's 1900 and the great game is still afoot. In reality Britain's Brexit isolation is making domestic poverty worse and Putin's war is rapidly depleting its soviet era weaponry and generals.

Well best of luck to them on ending the war without territorial concessions. Only way that happens is by pushing the Russians out militarily or by getting a total Russian economic collapse. No signs yet of the former, and the latter has been overdue by months now no? Or so the pundits say.

You concede though that such 'territorial concessions' if they were to happen would be taking place with a gun to the head and at the behest of a criminal and fascist regime who was illegally annexing the territory, correct?

The equivalent would be me entering your house with a shotgun this evening and you 'agreeing' to hand me over your wallet, credit card and car keys in order to get me to leave.

The two Brits (both serving members of the Ukrainian armed forces) and a Moroccan man captured in Donbas have just been sentenced to death.

Likely there will be some trade off in negotiations, either a no NATO/neutrality clause (raises security concerns) or Ukraine gets mutual defense clause with NATO/EU/US/UK but Russia keeps territories, or somewhere in between.

The ideal situation of a Russian withdrawal and full Ukrainian self-determination (Governance, EU, NATO) is not a likely scenario.

Assuming they are technically mercenaries hence the lack of protections after capture. Are all foreign fighters who joined up with Ukrainians still deemed mercenaries or is there any way they can be considered part of Ukrainian territorial defence?

Indeed. Also worth noting the Russian military is full of foreign nationals, but somehow I doubt their Donbas proxies will have any issue with that.

This Guardian article says 2 of them were in Ukraine's army.

I don't think foreigners in the French Foreign Legion are mercenaries, and I don't think Irish people who join some of the British army regiments are mercenaries, even if they are fighting for in a foreign (to them) army, and being paid a wage.

I thought "Mercenaries" would either be in some separate or at arms length "group" (like Blackwater in the US or Academi or whatever it is called now and Russia's Wagner company) that has "employees" and the group is being hired to do a job (fight), or perhaps they could be individuals being hired to fight but not actually joining the army itself + all that goes with that. Russia describing foreigners fighting in Ukraine "mercenaries" may not mean they are such. Russia lies and distorts stuff as suits them all the time.

One of the problems of things like the Geneva convention and other wartime "law" is that its only enforced on the losers. Unless you are militarily defeated you can just not let them hold you to account for these things. Realistically what can be done to enforce it? More sanctions?

I think Russia have announced several times that they will treat all foreign soldiers as mercenaries and will not afford them any protections, likely to discourage foreign soldiers to enlist for Ukraine.