Is this "Friendship" Abusive or Misunderstood?

osarusan · 31-05-2022 8:51am

The idea that you cannot cut him out of your life, and if he does go ahead with these projects you'd have no choice but to 'cause mass disruption' is very unhealthy thinking.

It sounds to me like you're still besotted with him, and he knows this and plays with you for validation.

If you can't cut him out of your life, then make an effort to view your relationship purely from a business perspective, without any element of friendship or emotion.

witchgirl26 · 31-05-2022 9:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119136440#Comment_119136440

How did he lie to his business partner? From what you said before, it was him talking about the finances & figures that annoyed you initially & caused you to go to the business partner.

Look I don't think the friendship is abusive but I do think it's toxic as hell. On both sides.

If you want it to remain a friendship though, you need to remove the business aspect as that's where the main bulk of the problems seem to lie.

As for your friend lying about being depressed etc - have you any proof he was lying other than the pic of medication? Because you do know that some meds can treat multiple things. I was on an anxiety medication for a while that had an impact on another condition I have. In fact, I was offered to stay on them to help the other condition when I felt my anxiety could be handled without meds as they'd been helping the other more.

Look I get you look up to this guy for some reason & think he's the bees knees but maybe he's better as a hero figure that you look up to from afar as opposed to someone in your life.

shesty · 31-05-2022 3:20pm

Sorry, step back here...this all reads as incredibly childish behaviour from both of you.

It's a scab you can't stop picking at.Setting up business projects to get back at him?Why on earth would you do that? And then saying yes to helping him out on something, even though you know - have demonstrated through past experience - that it probably won't end well for you? Say no, for god's sake, why would you do that either??

There's other things to life OP, go concentrate on the other things.I am reading your posts thinking who one earth has the time and energy to be putting into business ideas to get back at someone else, and taking on someone else's projects to "help" them.

Step away from this lad, and whatever idea you have of either helping him or getting back at him.It's quite childish to be wanting revenge like that, to my mind, and he's obviously not that great a character either.I'd suggsdt you go off and enjoy the rest of your life and ignore his attempts at contact.Clearly you do nothing for each other, so I really do not understand why you are bothering.He did you a few favours in the past that helped you get a step up,that doesn't mean you are in some kind of debt to him forever (and you obviously don't feel you are since you are trying to get one over on him).Stop trying to prove whatever it is you are trying to prove and move on with your life.

friendshipissue · 12-06-2022 9:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119140185#Comment_119140185

I consciously took some time away from this thread to gather my own thoughts on the matter.

I have a different perspective after reading many of the comments here.

For instance, I agree that I unnecessarily "over-friended" the value of this guy. Sure, we spoke about issues here and there, were Facebook friends and so on, went to bars and cafes and socialised and so on, but clearly I thought it was more of a friendship than he did. The business factor must have been greater for him than it was for me.

Sure, maybe I was over-stating his importance but, given the value he added to my life, it's very, very difficult not to acknowledge that value.

I do understand why some people think I was "immature" to seek revenge over what he did. Maybe I'm still immature now, but I thought getting your own back was quite common, even in adulthood. Maybe I'm actually wrong about that. But when he was constantly telling me how much the business was making, despite me begging him not to do it as it was a business I was so disappointed to have left, I had 9-months of constant weekly stress and it almost felt like I had to respond. Otherwise, I looked weak.

And yeah, cutting out someone like that - who basically transformed my life - is sad. You always want the people to stay in your life who made the best overall, net impact. And that he did. Yeah, he manipulates me because he knows how much I value his validation. I almost don't mind it. I see him as having the ability to do that.

When you are over-parented as a kid to the point where you have no life experience; and all of a sudden someone takes you under their wing in your mid-20s when you have nothing, no skills, and no opportunity to speak of (even if they don't think that's what they're doing) and "re-trains" you and programs you back on the right path toward and achieving success, it's hard not to see that person as the major person in your life, and the need to avoid the damaging people in your life (parents) who created the mess to begin with.

I do very much value the comments on this thread, and they have helped immensely. I hope the above adds more context to what happened.

YellowLead · 13-06-2022 12:12am

Have you talked to your partner about this, what is their take on it? As somebody who knows you very well it would be interesting to know how they felt. Or do you keep this obsessive side of you hidden from them?

HazeDoll · 13-06-2022 12:39am

Reading back over this thread, these are my observations:

You are infatuated with him. You need to stop pretending he's some great saviour in your life and admit to yourself you have a silly but intense crush on him.
You have a very 'zero-sum' understanding of life. If he's succeeding you're failing. If he is happy you are sad. The problem with this thinking (apart from the fact that it's not true) is that it means that all the factors that affect happiness are external to you. It puts your happiness beyond your control. You could have a great day, really feel like you're winning at life. Then you hear that this chap just got an award for employee of the month and you are plunged into feelings of bitterness and dissatisfaction. If you understand that his happiness or success don't detract one bit from yours you'd magically feel better. But you don't want to do that because you want to have excuses to think about him and pretend he's central to your life, even if doing so makes you miserable.

Hannibal_Smith · 13-06-2022 7:21am

You always want the people to stay in your life who made the best overall, net impact. And that he did. Yeah, he manipulates me because he knows how much I value his validation. I almost don't mind it. I see him as having the ability to do that.

He helped you out with a project, when you stepped away he jumped in meaning lots of money for him and you losing out, ignored your repeated requests to stop harping on about how much you made and you feel he manipulates you*. What overall best net impact has he made to your life that is so valuable?

Did he tell you at any stage not to leave the lucrative project you were working on?

I don't think its manipulation....the two of you are gaining from the relationship. You know what he's doing and you're allowing it so you can gain some expertise from him.

It's misunderstood by the sounds of it. Take the focus off him in your life and meet up with some buddies for a drink/coffee/walk and reduce this guy's importance in your life.

shesty · 13-06-2022 10:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119193818#Comment_119193818

I am struggling with this response.

I think it's very good that you stepped away to think about previous responses.

There are couple of things in your reply to me that ring alarm bells a bit.

Firstly your comment about "getting your own back" being quite common. Maybe I have the wrong view on the world, but - no. It's not common. Part of maturing as an adult is the realisation that you don't go and expend time and energy on "getting your own back" on every perceived slight, because honestly you cannot go through life like that. I am here trying to drum this into my 7 year old!!!! No, you don't keep hitting back trying to get one over or the last word on whoever is annoying you at a point in time! You don't look weak, you just learn to move on and let it go, and often, you're the better for it. You're saying you had 9 months of constant weekly stress. Or you could have said "yeah whatever", had a few weeks of mild annoyance whenever you thought of it (which would be less and less over time), and then.....nothing. I think you might need to revise your view on this approach to life.

You are still putting yourself in debt to him for whatever favours he did, even in the language of your response there. "given the value he added, it's very, very difficult not to acknowledge that value", "when someone "re-trains" you and programs you back on the right path"....no, sorry. He offered you opportunities and help, but you took them. You did that yourself. You've acknowledged him, he helped you for a period in your life, but you have noted that, and now you need to move on. Stop viewing him as someone you owe something to for the rest of your life. You don't.

You're also letting him manipulate you. I think you need to have a long hard look at your situation, because if that's the case and you are ok with it, there's not much point in being here asking for advice.

Jequ0n · 13-06-2022 11:05am

“When you are over-parented as a kid to the point where you have no life experience; and all of a sudden someone takes you under their wing in your mid-20s when you have nothing, no skills, and no opportunity to speak of (even if they don't think that's what they're doing) and "re-trains" you and programs you back on the right path toward and achieving success, it's hard not to see that person as the major person in your life, and the need to avoid the damaging people in your life (parents) who created the mess to begin with.”

You are still playing the victim card, but now you have added more people to the mix who caused your predicament. A nice basis to justify your own actions and thought processes.

As stated before I can somewhat understand where you are coming from, but I can assure you that your thinking is unhealthy and self destructive. Have you ever spoken to some in real life about this, your partner for instance?

friendshipissue · 13-06-2022 11:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119194308#Comment_119194308

I've explained what happened in the past, but he doesn't really express much of an opinion except to understand and acknowledge my version of events.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119194362#Comment_119194362

Again, I'm not "infatuated". My current boyfriend is not some second-rate solution who I'd drop for this other guy. Even if this "friend" offered to be with me, I'd reject it outright. I've never had any sort of fantasy about him whatsoever. I have no interest in the guy beyond friends, none at all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195037#Comment_119195037

You have a 7-year old daughter who presumably at times needed to be disciplined? When a child misbehaves, we correct their behaviour by punishing them in some way. That's really all I was doing in my case. I was being deliberately fed information in the full knowledge it was causing me stress. I didn't do any knee-jerk reaction when it happened, but I let it happen for 9-months. Only then did I decide that, just like a misbehaving child, it was necessary to teach this guy a lesson and let him know that actions have consequences. I'd like to think he learned some sort of lesson and that his actions did not go consequence-free. Maybe he'll think twice in the future about behaving in the same way toward other people.

I agree that maybe I should not owe some sort of permanent debt of gratitude.

But what would you do in my case; as he is someone I know for 8-9 years now. If, as I fear, he comes to me later this year and says that these projects went ahead and that he starts bragging about how much they're making etc. - knowing full well he fake-offered me 50% when he never intended on giving me any part of the project; the whole act was just an act to cause this kind of stress regarding its future income. Would you say nothing? Would you permanently block the guy? What is the correct response in this situation?

If it were left up to me, I'd tell him his actions are a disgrace and that, just like his crime of the past, he will now have a competing business.

friendshipissue · 13-06-2022 11:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195329#Comment_119195329

It's not being a victim; I'm merely sketching out context and placing this within a wider personal history.

I don't see myself as a victim at all. In the past, was I the victim of certain actions? Yes, but that doesn't mean I drown in self-pity about this situation because I do not. I'm simply searching for an objective interpretation of these events and how best to handle them in the future.

Furze99 · 13-06-2022 11:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195513#Comment_119195513

"If it were left up to me, I'd tell him his actions are a disgrace and that, just like his crime of the past, he will now have a competing business."

As you say, either politely decline any further involvement (probably best) or simpler just tell them to fcuk off.

Jequ0n · 13-06-2022 12:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195525#Comment_119195525

You are using it as an excuse to justify your own behaviour, which you refuse to a knowledge as troublesome. That’s really the only thing you are doing here and I suspect you will keep arguing until someone agrees with you.

Again: this guy isn’t abusing you. You are sabotaging yourself.

HazeDoll · 13-06-2022 12:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119136440#Comment_119136440

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195525#Comment_119195525

"Of course I'm the victim."

"I don't see myself as the victim at all."

Which is it?

I think you are so determined to continue to manufacture drama around this guy, you don't care whether any of it makes sense or not. The more details you give the more insights we get into your very odd understanding of human relationships. Comparing deliberate professional sabotage to a parent raising a child is beyond comprehension.

Find somebody, a therapist, who will help you with this and you will be happier. Print out your contributions to this thread and bring them along to your session. Stop trying to justify your infatuation and lack of professionalism to strangers on the internet.

He is not the problem. He is a focus for your problems. As long as you manage to keep the focus on him you will continue to have these problems because you are denying your own agency in this.

DoctorEdgeWild · 13-06-2022 12:31pm

Honestly OP, the notion that someone else being successful is causing you stress is really weird. Sometimes we make the wrong, or in hindsight wrong, choices. We don't have to let them eat us up.

A chap I played football with went on to play in the lower levels in England, made a nice living for himself and is now 'semi' retired at 42, golf, house, kids, lovely family etc. Occasionally I imagine what it would have been like if I'd kept pace with him instead of drifting off into other interests. But I feel zero ill will towards him, his success does not equal my failure.

I'd echo the above posters who say that 'getting your own back' is more a fleeting immediate feeling in the heat of the moment (traffic, queueing etc.) but not a feeling that lasts.

Thinking of adults as misbehaving children who need disciplining is an immature way to see social interactions in my opinion, even more so when applied to professional relationships.

I am sympathetic to your feelings though OP, you are not alone in struggling with things and I think everyone here is still wishing you the best of luck. 🙂

DoctorEdgeWild · 13-06-2022 12:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195686#Comment_119195686

Really good idea here about printing out the discussion to help in any kind of talking therapy (if you go that way), will save a lot of time (and money!)

dickdasr1234 · 13-06-2022 12:44pm

One the earliest adages I remember hearing as a child : 'Business and friendship don't mix'.

It made sense to me, even as a child.

There is no morality in business, only a bottom line.

shesty · 13-06-2022 12:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195513#Comment_119195513

Let me correct you there.When a child misbehaves, we don't always punish them. I recognise that my daughter is learning to control her feelings because she is just about 8 years old and her brain is not yet fully formed.And I try to correct her as I think is needed, but it isn't always punishing.

Adults brains are fully formed.We don't get that excuse.

Anyway, I digress.Truthfully OP, if I was you, and the situation was bothering me as much as you say it is bothering you, I'd walk off into the sunset, leaving him behind.My response to everything would be "really?that's nice", and "no - no sorry, I am not available to do that" over and over. I would not deviate from either of those lines, I would reduce contact by just not answering him or not calling him back til a week later, and I would just let him drift away.

He helped you out for a while, but you know the relationship isn't great for either of you now, I think you should just move on and leave him where he is.

Dav010 · 13-06-2022 1:36pm

What a strange thread, do people normally form deep emotional relationships with business acquaintances? I can understand the annoyance hearing the guy bragging about a job the op walked away from, but beyond that, any relationship/emotion should be solely a business one. Like others, it reads to me that the op won’t admit she has feelings for the other guy, it’s bordering on being a little creepy, so op, just finish up your business relationship with him and move on.

friendshipissue · 13-06-2022 1:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119195841#Comment_119195841

I'll put that advice into practice - and keep things purely professional going forward.

Though I'll have to learn to bite my tongue.

shesty · 13-06-2022 2:27pm

Yes, it's a key part of that ability - knowing when to shut up and walk away.

Silence often speaks volumes, something that not many people realise.

Big Bag of Chips · 17-06-2022 6:56am

You have a very unhealthy view of friendship and adult relationships. Even mentioning the word "punish" is weird. And no, children don't always need to be punished or disciplined in order to be taught right from wrong. Sometimes just talking and explaining works better.

Your posts are very difficult to follow and there seems to be an awful lot of superfluous detail. The upshot is, this is not normal. I don't know if you're the one at fault or if there's a pair of you in it but you need to realise that whatever you think you have with this fella, it's not friendship. Not on any functional level anyway. I have never felt the need to "punish" any of my friends. Ever. If someone did something bad enough to make me feel like that, I just walked away from the friendship. I have never been jealous of my friends' success or saw their success as a personal slight on me.

I think you need to walk away from whatever you two have going on. No grand statements or games to make him take notice and realise what he risks losing. Just walk away with your only agenda to be a person with healthy adult relationships and boundaries.

It's very very obvious that there's more to your feelings than purely friendship. That's something you need to reflect on in the context of your relationship - I mean your relationship with your boyfriend, not this fella.

VDFUser22 · 17-06-2022 7:13am

I think abusive could be overstating it but if you find his behaviour to be having a negative impact on your wellbeing or preventing you from advancing then you can always put some distance between you too.

friendshipissue · 22-06-2022 9:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119213878#Comment_119213878

I have started to respect that more since starting this thread, and that perhaps I was naïve all along. He knew it, and took advantage of it and the fact I valued his validation.

But on the relationship issue, I can put my hand on my heart and say I've never fantasized about this guy, never ever thought about me and him together. In fact, if he offered tomorrow to be with me, I wouldn't even consider it - I'd reject it outright. I can see how people think that something more affectionate must be at play, but trust me, there's nothing on that at all. I simply appreciate him as someone who made a pronounced and positive overall difference - in between all the bad bits.

But beyond that, yes, you're right - I think this became unhealthy, and this situation lasted for about 4-5 years, though we've known each other for perhaps 8 years.

I think part of the problem is that since turning 18, I developed intense dependency on certain people. Whether we call them friends is irrelevant in that sense, because I became somewhat dependent and saw them as intrinsic to my wellbeing in some way. He was the last in the line of those people.

The funny thing is now, is that I sort of don't want any close friends in my life at all. I've become the exact opposite of what I used to be. And I cannot understand what changed, or has allowed that to happen.

Jequ0n · 22-06-2022 11:03pm

“I have started to respect that more since starting this thread, and that perhaps I was naïve all along. He knew it, and took advantage of it and the fact I valued his validation.”

Can you explain how this differs from your previous stand point? You are still refusing any responsibility for your own actions and assigning guilt.

friendshipissue · 22-06-2022 11:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119237155#Comment_119237155

On the basis that, before this thread, I did believe it was a genuine friendship - albeit one wrought with difficulties.

Did I do wrong in mimicking the businesses? Yes. In my mind, 'wrong' is probably too strong a word. But should I have simply ignored what happened and moved on? Yes, absolutely. It would have been the more responsible, sensible response.

But at the same time, I don't think I'm responsible for absolutely everything. Did I do wrong? Yes, I did. But am I responsible for everything that went wrong? I think that might be drawing it too far.

I need to get rid of him, for good. And move on.

Dav010 · 23-06-2022 7:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119237195#Comment_119237195

You need to make business decisions based on business considerations, not on what you wrongly perceive as a personal relationship. Your bank manager is not your friend, despite how nice they are to you. Keep your professional relationships professional, he thinks of you only in a business capacity and how you can help him succeed, it isn’t friendship.

Is this "Friendship" Abusive or Misunderstood?

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