Are we excited yet?

Guys guys guys, don't be crazy, if you invest in Apple there could be some massive fraud by the CEO where the value crashes and people lose everything! Crypto is decentralised finance on the block chain ledger with the Web3.0 dontcha know, everyone knows everything so there can't be any scams!

Oh wait a sec..

😄

It's not really a case of 'the bitcoin magazine says so' - I posted that because that 'point' or question is brought up so often, that is an answer. I could have picked any other source There are thousands.

Another one here - https://aithority.com/guest-authors/bitcoin-has-no-intrinsic-value-then-what-gives-bitcoin-value/

But the truth is, I couldn't give a toss really.

I know Bitcoin could fail like everything else. It could succeed, it could be manipulated etc.. There are so many possibilities that could happen to it, more possibilities see it crashing than not if I am honest. .

I don't know anyone that thinks they invest in it, and it is just going to go up up up.. If that is what they believe, so be it.

I personally understand there are risks. I have decided to invest (initially I was using it) a good few years back. So it has done me ok so far. I am perfectly content spending my own money (I haven't invested a penny of anybody elses) into it, andI don't offer advice on it. It is my opinion (otherwise I wouldn't continue investing in it) that Bitcoin has at least another decade in it, and i may re-evaluate things then.

But for now, I am excited to see it this low, as it allows me to purchase more of it at a lower price. Hence me posting in the "Are we excited yet?" thread.

Suckit, what you are posting are basically links to blogs ramblings of people who are displaying that they don't understand what "intrinsic value" means. Either that, or they are trying to bluff to themselves as to why it does not matter that bitcoin has none.

Lets go back to the example that will have you all moaning - tulips! We could have a situation now where people are trading tulip bulbs back and forth for hundreds of thousands of Euros. Those bulbs will have an intrinsic value - which is their value as a bulb. The value for a person to buy it, plant it, and enjoy, or sell, the resulting flower. The market price might be hundreds of thousands of Euro, but the intrinsic value might be a Euro.

Companies can also sometimes trade at a discount to their intrinsic value. There are plenty of people or organisations which try to identify these companies and arbitrage them - either by buying them and chopping them up and selling off the pieces, or by buying and merging with other companies. Or even simply by reorganising and running them properly.

I probably posted a link to it here previously but Nassim Taleb published a nice paper last year on why the worth of bitcoin is exactly zero. If you have one, and someone will give you 20k for it, then more power to you.

i think you're getting hung up on the 'intrinsic' value side of the argument here. if enough people agree something has 'value', intrinsic or not, it does. same as fiat currency

e.g. like someone mentioned about baseball trading cards. i'm into retro video games, and some of what I have on my shelf would go for 100's of euro. they have an intrinsic value of basically €0, but based on appreciation of what it took to make them what they are (artistic creations, plus some other factors), they have a value far above that. likewise, the security of the Bitcoin network, as well as the energy reqd to mint them, is appreciated by enough folks to give Bitcoin value

so, 'intrinsic value' doesn't really come into it, the 'agreement of value' is what matters

I respect your input here, to save us from becoming an echo-chamber of sorts, and I will read that in full (and thank you for the heads up on it). but still, i find your response dismissive of what 'value' is.

from a quick glance at that paper (and i admit, it was a quick glance), one of the arguments is that BTC is currently too volatile, i.e:

For an employer to pay a salary fixed in bitcoin, she

or he must be getting revenues fixed in bitcoin. Furthermore,

for the vendor to offer a can of beer in fixed bitcoins, she or

he must be paying for the raw material, and have the overhead

fixed in bitcoin. The same applies to the mismatch of assets

and obligations on a balance sheet. All this requires a parity

in bitcoin-USD of low enough volatility to be tolerable and

for variations to remain inconsequential.

but this is in the immediate term. over time, as more users agree the value, BTC (and other cryptos) will become less volatile and accepted as a means of payment between users. why wouldn't they, as fiat is only backed by the same agreement between users??

What makes you think that it will, or can, become less volatile?

Central Banks are constantly putting different open market operations into place to try to add stability. Of course it does not always work perfectly, but we saw an example of it this week when the Fed brought in the biggest jump in rates in a few decades in response to inflation in the US.

Your bitcoin has no apparent intrinsic value. If you could tell me that I could save 100 Euro by doing transaction X in bitcoin rather than in Euros, then that could give me a figure for a value for it. Arbitrage will take it to at least that value. (It may go beyond that value if it has other uses and people think it will be worth more in the future and instead of using it, buy it and hoard it). But nobody has given me such an intrinsic value for it. (Plus you have the added complication that a transaction fee does not depend on the size of the transaction anyway). The price of bitcoin will depend purely on how many people want to put money into it at any given time.

If there was global market chaos tomorrow and a flight to safety to the dollar, then the dollar would strengthen. But if that were to become a problem for the US, they would counteract that. Sometimes CBs will also "manipulate" (for want of a better word) the relative values of their currencies in order to give a competitive advantage. China has been accused of doing this many times in the past. The point is that there are some mechanisms that can be used to smooth out volatility in "traditional" currencies, that are not available for cryptocurrencies. You might also be aware of the recent example of the Ruble. When sanctions came in, it tanked at first, and in order to try to protect it, the Russian CB doubled rates to 20%. (It has recovered massively since, but for other reasons)

The quote which you are referring to is just pointing out that things cannot be priced in bitcoin. If someone was prepared to sell you an item for 1 BTC two weeks ago, do you think they will sell it to you for 1BTC today? They might allow you to pay in bitcoin, and they might tell you how many bitcoin you need to give them today in order to complete the sale, but that is not the same as pricing the item in bitcoin. In reality, that item might be priced as $30k, but two weeks ago they advertised it at 1BTC. Today it will be advertised maybe as 1.3BTC or whatever. That is the point he is making in that one. Accepting the bitcoin for payment does not mean the item is priced in bitcoin.

Let me give you an example which might be somewhat familiar, and one which people regularly complained about. There are various UK high street shops which have branches in Ireland. An item might have a price tag which says "100 Euro", and under that it might say "90 pounds". Obviously in Ireland you will pay the Euro price, regardless of the FX rate at the time you buy. You can get away with that though because of the relative stability and also the friction of trying to take advantage of any difference. That is what he is talking about regarding arbitrage bounds. If the FX massively jumps, then there comes a point at which it is worth your while to get your buddy in London to buy it at the GBP price and send it to you. But in most cases, it won't be worth your while.

This is why bitcoin exists. You can't print 5 trillion bitcoin and pump it into an economy to hyper inflate it like Joe Biden did. You can't raise the interest rates over night to tipp it into a recession like the fed just did.

The greatest pump and dump scheme since the last pump and dump that broke the banking system and just made the rich richer and the poor poorer by taking their savings, their homes, and saddling them with the risky debt the regulated system created.

It's why bit on was invented.

You want an example of how you could save money making a payment in bitcoin?

I have one. I bought a car in the UK. I was charged 400 euro for a bankers draft and nearly 500 to convert euro to sterling. So it cost me 900 euro to buy something in sterling. That cost had the risk that both sterling and the euro fluctuate all day. The amount I was changing had a direct impact on the amount I was spending. Unlike bitcoin that has a fixed cost per transaction regardless of the amount. 1 bitcoin or 1 million bitcoin costs the same to move.

If they buyer would have taken bitcoin that would have cost me about €80 on the day not 900.

If I was organised had had that exact amount in a wallet. I could just text him the address and that would have cost me 12cent.

That's your intrinsic value question answered exactly how you asked for it to be answered so hopefully that's and end to you repeatedly mentioning it.

The second point of pricing in bitcoin is putting some conditions on it that no other product or currency has to stick with. Why does the price in bitcoin have to stay the same when the cost of the item or the value of the bitcoin has moved?. If something cost 1 bitcoin last week and the markets move they can just charge 1.1 bitcoin. That is really easy to do.

If I look on Amazon I can pay in sterling or euro. But if the euro went to half the price of sterling. They just change the price

Transfer wise was not an option. the seller wanted a bank draft so that's what I had to buy. Also, neither I nor he had time to sit around waiting for the money to clear. Read the importing from the UK thread to see all the people who had to hang around showrooms for hours while transfers cleared.

I can't tell you what it will cost on July the 1st, same as you can't tell me the cost to transfer sterling on July 1st. That is why I did;t say you could. I said it was fixed in the context that the amount didn't change it.

What's the point. Ye have ye're minds made up.

Ye say it's not a hedge against inflation.

I show how €1000 ten years ago is worth €850 today, but €1000 in bitcoin ten years ago is worth 4 million today. A real world hedge against inflation. And I get told that you can't point to something ten years ago.

Ye ask for an example of where buying something in bitcoin saves you money.

I give a real life example when buying my car in the UK. And I get told I should have used a different payment system.

Ye say you can't buy anything with Bitcoin.

I show that you can buy lots of stuff all over the world from massive retailers.

Ye say it has no value.

I show it has lots of value, uses, I show why. And the response is that I've lost the run of myself and it's all fomo.

Every question has been asked and answered but every time there is an answer the goal posts a moved or the source is flipped away.

Unfortunately, this is another section of boards that has seen a massive decline in usability. It used to be a great place to chat about all aspects of crypto currency but the trolls have ruined it.