Pizza ovens

wersal gummage · 16-06-2022 9:11pm

Anyone here using a stand mixer for pizza dough??

If so I have a question!

Gloomtastic! · 16-06-2022 9:51pm

Ask away…….😋

wersal gummage · 17-06-2022 11:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119213121#Comment_119213121

Thanks!

I'm a beginner "Baker", but have managed to make the pizza dough each time and it has worked, probably not perfect but certainly functional and not much wrong with it. I'm fit and healthy, reasonably strong etc, but after 10 mins or so of kneading I'm covered in sweat to the point I'd need to change my top! Maybe humidity last few weeks is an element...

Anyway, I decided to buy a stand mixer, having watched a lot of vids on YouTube about how simple it looks etc... Went for a reasonably good one I think, but bought it from amazon warehouse so it had been returned by someone else....

https://www.kenwoodworld.com/en-gb/titanium-chef-baker-xl-silver-kvl85-004si/p/KVL85.004SI

So I put my ingredients into the mixing bowl in the normal order I would do if making by hand, used the dough hook, and put the mixer onto its lowest setting.... After 10 mins it had not mixed the stuff up properly at all, so I was using the spatula to encourage stuff off the edges and into the bowl.... Then I turned the machine from lowest to number 1 setting (out of 6)..... After another 10 mins it had finally incorporated all the ingredients but it was a total sticky mess, practically glued to the sides and bottom..... I left it another 20 mins and still the exact same....

From watching online I'd have expected the process to take 10 mins max (I can do a good dough by hand in about 10 /12)....

So after around 40 mins now, the dough is for the bin but I'm curious.... So I turn it to number 2.....10 mins of that and nothing.... By the way, at setting number 2, with enough ingredients to make 3 bases, the machine is now moving around the counter and has to be held in place....

So then to setting number 4 and after a min or 2 it actually starts to suck the dough from the sides if you know what i mean, but after a few mins it was still stuck to the bottom and never formed a proper dough ball....

So in the bin.... Some googling then seemed to suggest that mixers react in different ways to different hydration levels (I had used 62%).. And thr ingredients should be added in different order, and in increments etc...

So I went onto the kenwood website and found a recipe fkr simple bread, followed the instructions to the letter, and after 10 mins of kneading with the dough hook as per recipe, I had a total sticky mess that was nothing like ready to prove...

Sorry for my life story here.

I have returned the machine. I guess my questions are,

1) is it possible I had a faulty machine? (dough hook was not adjustable) and previous person returned for similar reasons?

2) is it more likely I'm an idiot and just needed to try and experiment with lots of different mixes /percentages to get it right?

3) are stand mixers a bit precious? I am really only looking to make pizza dough and bread, so if its not going to make my life a lot easier I can't justify the price and size of the thing....

I don't know whether to buy a brand new one now and try again, eg if above sounds like a possible dodgy machine? Or alternatively if they do require a lot of getting to know, then I will stick with hand made!!

VinLieger · 17-06-2022 1:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119214922#Comment_119214922

My mother has that exact machine which ive used pretty successfully combined with the Ooni app for quantities. You absolutely need to add the water slowly as you go with a mixer and keep it on the lowest setting.

Both times ive used it by 8-10 minutes the dough was happily all wrapped up around the dough hook without need for any prodding or poking and was ready to proof. Based on my experience with that mixer it sounds to me like you have far too much water, but i'm far from an expert and just follow the apps quantities.

Im currently on a very bottom level mixer that im certain will burnout pretty soon. It gets to about 10 mins with everything mixed but the dough still very sticky so I need to knead it myself for another 2-3 minutes till its properly ready. That machine you had is what im hoping to get in the next year or two if im honest as it made things far easier compared to what I currently have.

Tree · 17-06-2022 2:20pm

Kneading is hard work for sure but nothing on making fudge or choux by hand ;)

The sticky dough depends on a bunch of things, some flours don't need all the water, some doughs should be a bit sticky (depends on how you plan to cook it and the original recipe). If it's still a bit sticky in the mixer it can be worth turning it out onto a floured counter and kneading it for a little (not to incorporate all the flour but to sort of put a different shape on the dough instead of stiring like the mixer does). Sticky doughs end up a lot less sticky after their first proof IME.

el_gaucho · 17-06-2022 2:24pm

We have a Panasonic bread oven. I use the dough making cycle to mix the pizza dough. It works much better than the dough hook on the mixer. (To be fair, it’s not a great mixer). If all you want is something to knead dough, a bread oven is worth considering.

oscarBravo · 17-06-2022 2:36pm

I use a stand mixer to make dough for 8-9 200g bases at a time. I dissolve the yeast in the water in the mixer bowl, and when it has had a change to wake up I add the oil, flour and salt in that order. Then I run the mixer until the dough is fully combined, at which point it's usually wrapped around the dough hook and twirling uselessly. At that point I turn it out, hand knead it for a couple of minutes and leave it for its first proof.

I don't stress too much about kneading it because I usually make dough on a Wednesday and let it fridge-proof until the Saturday. This involves taking it out of the fridge once or twice a day when it threatens to escape the bowl, knocking it back, giving it a good fold and returning it to the fridge.

On the Saturday I divide it into balls and let the two or three I need for that evening's pizzas prove at room temperature. The remainder I stick on a tray in the deep freeze until they're frozen hard then stick them in a freezer bag for the following weekends.

The multi-day proof means that the initial knead is much less important, and also gives a fantastic fermented flavour to the dough.

GalwayMan74 · 17-06-2022 3:16pm

I lash all the ingredients into the bowl and leave the mixer (kitchen aid) on low for 5min.

Works every time.

wersal gummage · 17-06-2022 4:14pm

Thanks for all that. Interesting range of comments, from add the water slowly, to add everything at once, to add the water first etc...

I was also using the Ooni calculator, for 62% hydration. I tried the 65% a few times and too sticky for me.

To the person talking about different flour /sticky dough etc, I am using the exact same ingredients and the exact same quantity of ingredients as I have used by hand with no problem, it starts off a bit sticky sure but it ends up fine.

Confused now as to what to do. Think I'll stick with hand kneading for the moment.

This machine is designed to handle 2.5 kilos of dough, I had put in enough ingredients for 3x250 gramme pizza balls, and at setting 1 it did nothing whatsoever, but at setting 2 it was moving around the table...

wersal gummage · 17-06-2022 4:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119215917#Comment_119215917

Your technique is what I did Oscar, but after 10 mins on low the machine hadn't even mixed the ingredients together, like what I'd do by hand in a bowl in about 45 seconds.....

Roberto_gas · 17-06-2022 4:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119214922#Comment_119214922

You need to finish the dough up using hands and folding at 90 degrees and it will turn smooth soon !! I use stand mixer and would never go back to hand stretching again !

also let it rest for few mins in between mixing..and use the dough hook attachment !

Roberto_gas · 17-06-2022 4:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119216453#Comment_119216453

Too less quantity ? What is the weight of the total dough? I do it easily for 1kg(4 balls) using a dough hook in my kenwood..wont use it for below that

EDIT- 750 gm is too less ! Use your hands

wersal gummage · 17-06-2022 6:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119216576#Comment_119216576

This was just a first use of the machine to see how it worked....

I'd normally make 4x 300gm. And someone above said to make extra and freeze some, so I'd be happy to do that too.

I was just making the point of how badly the machine performed with relatively little contents in the bowl...

Tree · 17-06-2022 10:39pm

Stand mixers do need a certain amount in them to work. I use a very reliable brioche recipe that says "double it to use a hook, otherwise use the paddle", so that might be worth a shot for your small quantities.

donnacha · 17-06-2022 11:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119217870#Comment_119217870

Can you share the brioche recipe you are using?

Muahahaha · 18-06-2022 8:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119216442#Comment_119216442

As others said it looks like you might be using too much water and thats why you are ending up with a sticky mess that isnt really a dough. At that point the only thing you can do is add more flour a couple of tablespoons at a time until it forms into a more pliable dough that can be handled. But at that point the recipe and hydration levels have been changed and you're likely to end up with a dough that bakes really dense bready pizza with very few air bubbles in it. Ive added flour to sticky doughs in the past and I think if it needs a lot of extra flour you are actually better off binning it and starting again. I had one mess that needed almost 10 extra tablespoons of flour to come together and it baked awfully and I binned the rest of the dough balls.

On the water when using the stand mixer I pour in about 60% of it to begin with and then trickle the rest of it in as the dough forms and scraping down the sides to encourage mixing. Sometimes I dont need to use all the water specified in the recipe, like this afternoon I made taffoon flatbead dough for kebabs and that recipe calls for 500g flour with 300ml water. By the time Id poured in 250ml it was enough water as the dough was moving up the hook and it had fully formed. If I had of used the final 50ml of water all it would have done was returned the dough to the sticky phase and thats what I dont want becasue that ends up in handling problems. (one tip though is if you have a sticky dough pour a bit of olive oil on your hands and it makes it a lot easier to handle)

AFAIK different flours react differently at different humidifies. Even a flour that you use in the winter will behave differently to how the same flour behaves in the summer becasue of different humidity levels. The way to control for that is not to add all the water specified in the recipe in one go and approach the task knowing that you can add water in but you cant take it out. And also that a recipe is a good guide but there may be deviations depending on humidity so when it comes to the water/flour mix you dont always have to stick to the exact measurements to make a good dough.

Finally I wouldd say dont send your stand mixer back but try again. These machines do work and they work very well once you master them. Im not a fan of hand kneading dough for 10-15 minutes and the stand mixer just makes things so much easier. Also can you post up the recipe you are using just to make sure you werent given a bum steer.

Tree · 18-06-2022 9:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119218117#Comment_119218117

Completely off topic, but I'm sure you could bake it in a cooling pizza oven... It makes great buns or cinnamon rolls or just brioche

This is the doubled volume for a hook. You can do it by hand but incorporating this much butter is zero craic.

7g dried yeast
50g milk
500g strong flour
10g salt
25g caster sugar
4 large eggs
250g soft butter

Disolve the yeast in the milk (I do this in the stand mixer.

Add flour/salt/sugar/eggs, mix on low for about 10 mins until it comes together. Then add the butter in blobs (it should be too soft to be nice cubes), stand mixer till incorporated. Tip into a bowl to proove and then use how you like.

wersal gummage · 19-06-2022 8:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119220933#Comment_119220933

Thanks for that.

Recipe was same as I always use (which I can manage by hand) :

62%

Flour 452 gr

Water 285 ml

Salt 13.5 gr

Dry yeast 0.9 gr

Dough per pizza

250 gr

Total Dough

750 gr

wersal gummage · 19-06-2022 8:15am

Ps, I don't know if anyone uses amazon warehouse, I hadn't used it before. Mixer was described as "used" which I sort of imagined meant box had been opened and returned.... But it was in fact very much used, with all the parts needed to be cleaned, smears of dough on everything, and some kind of flaky pastry type material all over the head of the machine, and when turned on all bits of pastry type material came flying out for ages, was a good while cleaning it. Just for info in case anyone else was considering that route

VinLieger · 19-06-2022 11:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119222142#Comment_119222142

In that case based off your recipe id say its very possible it was the machine that somehow was part of the problem as I mentioned above I used that machine twice before with a 60% recipe and had absolutely no issues.

Muahahaha · 19-06-2022 4:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119222142#Comment_119222142

The recipe you posted is fine so no worries there.

But that information above would have me concerned, it sounds like this stand mixer was not just used but also abused especially if pastry was coming flying out of the head unit. I would have sent it back immediately and would still consider doing so. I often buy from Amazon Warehouse when they have a good discount on a product I want anyway but if it arrives in crap condition then its going back. I dont mind something with a small scratch or cosmetic imperfection or instructions missing but if an item looks properly used then Id return becasue the chances are you are buying someone elses problem. Amazon are normally pretty good with returns and should send you a free postage label to get it back to them.

Just for reference if you end up buying another stand mixer again, I got my own in Aldi 2 years back for 59.99 (Ambiano is the brand) and it came with a 3 year warranty which was peace of mind as Aldi are really good on returns. I use it primarily for pizza dough and naan and it does the job perfectly. As much as I like Kenwoods or Kitchen Aids I wasnt willing to invest 300+ euro in a unit as aside from pizza Im not a big baker. The Aldi unit does pizza dough well so thats all I wanted it for, its been a good time saver over kneading dough for up to 15 minutes

Roberto_gas · 21-06-2022 6:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119222142#Comment_119222142

Mine is from warehouse and came brand new .. its hit n miss

Muahahaha · 22-06-2022 9:01pm

Can anyone remember how their Ooni ran out of gas? Id a cook on but when I went back out after pre heating the flame was off. Tried it again and the flame does come on on when the knob is pressed in and the ignition is engaged but as soon as I let go of the knob the flame goes out again. Is this pretty much a signal that the gas is empty? I did the hot water test but that wasnt conclusive as the tank felt cold in its bottom 20%, when shaking the cylinder Im not hearing anything but guess you wouldnt as its gas anyway? Or does anyone know what is the weight of an empty cylinder, that way I could weigh it to check

Tree · 22-06-2022 10:39pm

The weight should be on the cylinder tag.

CantGetNoSleep · 23-06-2022 1:21pm

What are people using for proofing boxes? Anything from Ikea that would do the job?

shanec1928 · 23-06-2022 5:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238911#Comment_119238911

Posted a few posts back what I use for proofing

wersal gummage · 24-06-2022 9:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119192898#Comment_119192898

Roberto,

I've tried a few slow, cold proofs now and seems good. I'm doing first proof at around 72 hours, then into dough balls, and then left covered at room temp for around 5 hours.

Would cold proof for the second proof (in dough balls) improve things again? Is it just 5 hours or could I leave in fridge for another 24/28 hours etc? (eg if I made more than I needed, could I use some and leave others another day or two?).

Finally, after you cold proof for second time, do you then take out and leave sit at room temp for a few hours before making bases?

Thanks again for your advice

Roberto_gas · 24-06-2022 7:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119242319#Comment_119242319

I do bulk cold fermentation..it helps to get good firm dough easy to stretch and enhances the flavours too..you can also make balls after this and then cold proof them again..ensure you give enough bulk cold fermentation time…

i generally remove the bulk dough from refrigerator 5-6 hrs before i make pizzas, ball them and let them rise at room temperature. Cold dough also helps in Shaping balls easily !! Made few pies today

Recipe from pizza app also included

Muahahaha · 25-06-2022 3:10pm

Looks great roberto. Are you using some sort of jewellers weighing scale to measure out 0.64g of yeast or how do you do it

VinLieger · 26-06-2022 10:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119245078#Comment_119245078

Nice ive only done 60% until now and while its been fine the crusts are still a bit denser than id like and id really like to get bigger bubbly crusts similar to what you have. Does increasing the water help with that?

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