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I think justice was served here.

1910111315

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,478 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    I think what's fundamental to Irish society in general is citizens attitudes to what is scumbag behaviour and the divergence therein. I'm sure plenty of people would have no issue with them robbing the bike. Do you reckon if the bike was given back anybody would have got stabbed?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,937 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Hey, I do not overly disagree here. And I did make the point that Bento didn't set out to kill that day

    It's a tragic case, and can be studied and discussed from so many angles.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,119 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    In the case of the lawyer the high court judge had legitimate concerns. by the time they went to the Court of Appeal those fears were allayed

    Well no, the High Court were quite clear on why they denied bail, he was a serious flight risk and the weight of the evidence.

    Those concerns weren't allayed, they still existed, what the Court of Appeal rightly ruled was his presumption of innocence and therefore his liberty had to be weighted more than the High Courts concerned, primarily because they are a basic human right.

    Unfortunately what rights you are entitled to appear to be dependant on how much money you have.



  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    So the video can't show us much but the prosecution's argument based on stills from the video (rejected by all 12 jurors) should be treated as compelling?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,782 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    But that’s not what happened. He stabbed someone who was punching him. Someone who was part to a group of around ten people, involved in attacking him and his friend.

    Not someone trying to diffuse the situation.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,119 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    But, a person retrieving the bike and in the process, brandishing a knife against the thief could be seen as scumbag behaviour

    Nope, the prosecution even conceded he was entitled to retrieve the stolen bike.

    As for the thief he was a extremely violent career criminal, I doubt asking him nicely would have got the bike back.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,937 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    No, not as compelling. My point was that the video and stills cannot accurately tell us the feel and intensity and reality of the situation

    Witness testimony was every bit as compelling to both defense and prosecution as cctv clips/images



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,937 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Nobody said retrieving the bike could be viewed as scumbag behavior: I added that in doing so you brandish a deadly weapon (knife)

    It's this important part that could well see people thinking that Bento's reaction to the steal was OTT



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,937 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    I know this is not what happened....

    I was asking a hypothetical question.....from what I viewed as a kind of precedent being set as regards citizens using weapons when involved in altercations. It is a very dangerous area, because of exactly what I described......innocent people could get caught up in it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,615 ✭✭✭blackbox


    That's why we have a jury - every case is different.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,752 ✭✭✭Feisar


    I was thinking the same before you posted. The whole yer home is yer castle thing came in after Nally and co didn't it? So now IMVHO that has been extended to included the defence and recovery of property. As you say, a very dangerous precedent.

    And just to be clear I think yer man got what he deserved.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭sekiro


    My child wouldn't be several km from home attacking immigrant delivery drivers so I think I'd be OK.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭Quitelife


    That whole East Wall area has become a very dangerous part of Dublin , how many other delivery workers have been attacked in that area?

    Hard to know how delivery drivers still travel in some areas of Dublin .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    You conveniently left out the bit on the Court of Appeal where the Justice weighed in on Phelan as flight risk. He disagreed with the High Court on the prospect of him evading justice, but the appeal centred on his status as a flight-risk. Everyone enjoys the status of innocent under the law if you haven't been convicted by a jury, but when you're copping a murder charge it's not a magic wand, you have to apply for bail and satisfy the court you're a. Not a further danger and b. Not a flight risk.

    Phelan's appeal was centred around him being unlikely to abscond and the judge at the Court of Appeal even referenced his behaviour post-shooting being consistent with that of someone who is unlikely to abscond.

    There is no way in hell Bento wasn't an objective flight risk given his actions, and it nothing to do with his standing in society or what's in his bank account.

    You're once again pushing a pet theory about this case.

    Bento ended up on remand and refused bail off the back of his own actions after the incident.



  • Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭sekiro


    They need the money. I don't imagine it's a well paying job and I think if people could get work that wasn't this then they would and that just makes the whole thing even worse. This is a guy doing a job that most wouldn't fancy and on top of all that he's getting attacked by little scumbags and even more on top of that he's expected to just take a beating and not defend himself.

    This is a 36 year old man riding a bicycle around Dublin on a freezing cold January night delivering food in a known dangerous area. People aren't doing that unless they are pretty desperate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,937 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    That's all well and good in a perfect world, but what if your teen son became involved (due to circumstances) in a simlar altercation and was stabbed to death for it? Your son, who has never come before garda attention before, and who is not a scumbag.

    Lot folks here want to paint the dead teen as a scumbag based off seconds of his life....nobody knows anything about the dead teen, other than this very quick incident where he was stabbed to death durng an altercation with a man wielding a knife



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,589 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    He only took out the knife after the thief had made treats of their own with a knife



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,119 ✭✭✭✭Boggles



    There is no way in hell Bento wasn't an objective flight risk given his actions

    Again, his girlfriend booked the flights, the flights that were cancelled that afternoon.

    There was no flights when Mr. Bento handed himself into Gardaí the next day.

    On January 27, Ms Gerino said she met the accused's partner in the bathroom and she wanted to book a flight and needed help with it. Mr Bento's partner asked the witness if she could use her bank card to pay for the flight as her's was not working, which she agreed to.

    Ms Gerino said she was unclear whether the flight was to Portugal or Brazil. The price for the flight was €574 so the witness said she concluded that it was for two people. Asked by Mr Guerin if she had heard about a boy being stabbed and dying at the time she made the booking, Ms Gerino said she had not heard about it but saw on a group that there had been a fight but had no more information.

    Under cross-examination by Mr Dwyer, the witness said she did not know that the booked flights were cancelled later that afternoon. She agreed that she knew Mr Bento contacted a solicitor's firm in Dublin later that day and that the accused's girlfriend had tried to contact the Brazilian embassy as well. Ms Gerino also agreed that Mr Bento presented himself at a garda station the next day.

    "His actions" were of a man fully cooperating with Gardaí.



  • Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭rogerywalters


    Hard to know how many? There is very few cases that have made the news. One was knocked and killed down by teens in a car. Bentos pal got his nose and teeth broken , was bento injured much?. There was another broken nose in finglas. Deliveroo running about 10years?



  • Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭rogerywalters




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  • Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭sekiro


    Then I'd be looking in the mirror for answers. How could it be that my 16 year old kid was out at 9pm on a January night as part of a gang attacking delivery drivers who are just trying to make a living? For that kids family, the answer to the question of "why" lies squarely in the lap of the parents.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    It doesn't matter a jot the flights were cancelled (following a meeting with a solicitor no less which also saw WhatsApp messages deleted)

    There are zero High Court judges that will view that with anything other than a jaundiced eye. It objectively puts a person in the category of potential absconder at high risk of leaving the jurisdiction.

    The Hight Court must protect both protect the integrity of the justice system in murder cases in minimising risk to the public, and minimising the risk of an alleged offendor evading the justice system.

    That's they're job, and they did it. Bento placed himself in the category of flight risk. Not anyone else, and you can cheerlead all day but that's the reality.

    There is no conspiracy here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭rogerywalters


    He was 16 not 12. How could it be that a 16yr old was out at 9pm? What world do you live in , christ. It is fact that the teens did not instigate the altercation. Admitted by all parties.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,119 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Bento placed himself in the category of flight risk

    By cancelling flights?

    Evil Genius that lad. 😕





  • You are discounting all of the lower level incidents that don’t get reported.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    By having booked flights in the first instance. That's high risk of absconding behaviour and 100 percent of High Court judges will consign you to remand until trial off the back of it.

    You need to come in from the fog on this one. There is no conspiracy. That's the court system doing its job, and doing it well.

    The High Court was not there to adjudicate on his guilt or innocence, it was there to assess if Bento was to be granted bail considering a. If He was a further public order or safety risk,.and b. if he was a flight risk. He was objectively b. all day long.

    This isn't a shoplifting charge. It's a murder charge. The most serious charge one can face. The justice system has a job to protect the integrity of the trial and the safety of the public.



  • Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭sekiro


    Anything to avoid placing the responsibility exactly where it belongs, eh?

    I even saw one article saying if it wasn't for the lockdowns he would have been playing football.

    Seems like there's only two choices for young lads here. Playing football or attacking delivery drivers. No middle ground.

    Maybe the kid should have been working as a delivery rider himself, earning a bit of money? Nah. Too dangerous.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    LOL

    The ould CCTV footage is a curse on the gardai in these cases. Hard to bullshit a judge when the events are recorded.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,589 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    He made it appear that he had. that is enough justification for me.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,589 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail




  • Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭rogerywalters


    Hahahahaha, but you said he had a knife? And is it you that called me a troll?



  • Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭rogerywalters




  • Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭rogerywalters


    That you are sure of are you? Any stats or anything no?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,589 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Bento reasonably believed he had a knife. that is enough. and I never called you a troll. that was a different poster.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,119 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    By having booked flights in the first instance

    Again, his girlfriend booked the flights in fear of retaliation.

    This isn't a shoplifting charge. It's a murder charge. The most serious charge one can face

    Absolutely the DPP better be damn sure they have the evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt before they put any person through that experience, but as evidenced by the clown show they had no such evidence.

    The justice system has a job to protect the integrity of the trial and the safety of the public.

    By locking up innocent victims?

    Cool.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    You're not to be helped Boggles.

    All day, every day, until the end of time, murder accused who display even a hint of being a risk of absconding are put on remand and stay there. It's time you reconciled yourself to that.

    Bento sealed his pre-trial fate with the WhatsApps and flights.

    I look forward to the next high profile case where a murder accused is refused bail based on obvious public interest grounds and your song and dance in favour of the presumption of innocence.





  • I think it is generally accepted that the area has a crime problem.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,119 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    All day, every day, until the end of time, murder accused who display even a hint of being a risk of absconding are put on remand and stay there. It's time you reconciled yourself to that.

    Apart from the affluent barrister who has dual nationality.

    I look forward to the next high profile case where a murder accused is refused bail based on obvious public interest grounds and your song and dance in favour of the presumption of innocence

    See above. What more of a comparable do you need?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,119 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Sorry the dual national affluent barrister facing a murder charge who just returned from holidays is a conspiracy?

    Okay.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    One murder accused had flights booked to abscond to Brazil the day after some lay dead, one did not.

    I'd say I trust you understand the distinction, but I know you already do.

    You've just thrown down your anchor on a conspiracy theory and backpeddling in the face of cold hard legal reality is too much for you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,119 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Again, for the 6th time, his girlfriend had booked flights because she was in fear of their safety. The flights were cancelled that afternoon and Mr. Bento handed himself in and fully cooperated with Gardaí, as a person attempting to flee goes, that's a bit shít isn't it? Cancelling the flights and handing yourself in would be the complete opposite to fleeing, wouldn't it? 😂

    Considering a Deliveroo driver was attacked that week for merely cycling past a vigil for the deceased her fears were very much real.

    But lets nip this in the bud once and for all.

    You said.

    All day, every day, until the end of time, murder accused who display even a hint of being a risk of absconding are put on remand and stay there

    Not so though is it?

    A leading barrister, who is accused of murdering a father of four in a fatal shooting on farmland in Tallaght, has been granted bail on Friday evening after the Court of Appeal overturned the rejection of his bail application by the High Court last month

    Justice George Birmingham said the accused man enjoys a presumption of innocence and as part of that he enjoys a presumption in favour of bail

    Even when a High Court, yes deemed 'hinted" even that he was a flight risk

    powerful incentive to evade justice” based on the seriousness of the charge, the strength of the evidence

    Your statement is absolute nonsense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Ok, ok. I'll break this one down for and give you a hypothesis Boggles.

    Imagine for a moment that you are a High Court judge. You have before you a murder accused applying for bail.

    You learn that the accused murderer, immediately after the incident booked flights to a non-extradition country (Let's call it Bogglesland). The accused is a citizen of Bogglesland, a jurisdiction well-known to not extradite it's citizens.

    Be honest now, what do you do?

    If you answer you grant bail in this circumstance, you're a grade-A bullsh*tter.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,119 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    No where does it suggest that either the DPP or the High Court knew that the innocent victims girlfriend had booked flights at the time of his bail hearing.

    Now back to what you said, no one ever in the history of Ireland will get bail or will ever get bail if there is a hint of not showing up for the trial in a murder charge.

    That's blatantly untrue isn't it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭rogerywalters


    Yeah it certainly does , its a rough area i know it very well. But incidents with delivery drivers are a very low end of the scale. As i said , a broken nose in finglas, a broken nose and some teeth in east wall , a hit and run resulting in death as well. In i dont know 20 years? I think to suggest the brazilians would have lost their lifes is a massive stretch. We will never know.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    The High Court judge was fully aware of the flights. It was furnished to the court by the state.

    What do you do? Do you bail?

    Remember we're talking about the citizen of Bogglesland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,119 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    The High Court judge was fully aware of the flights. It was furnished to the court by the state.

    Citation please.

    You absolutely do bail given the underwhelming lack of evidence the state had on it's trumped up clown show trial. A mans liberty and presumption of innocence has to be weighted higher than any fears the DPP may have, as stated clearly by the Court of Appeal in the Barrister case, also stated by the High Court judge in the baby murderer case.

    Again the entire incident was on video. Something you seem to forget.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Of course the High Court knew. It was in the book of evidence* furnished by the State to the High Court.

    So Cmon Boggles do you let the murder accused out on bail knowing he had booked flights or no?

    If you say no, you're a grade-A bullsh*tter. If you say yes, you've lost face arguing a point you know is bullsh*t

    *I can tell you're out of your depth here



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,937 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    So, really all the judge needed to do was look at a video and then scrap the upcoming trial and all go home?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,119 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Of course the High Court knew. It was in the book of evidence* furnished by the State to the High Court.

    You'll have no problem providing citation or a link to what informed you so.

    In your own good time.



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