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Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

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  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Because now the confidence interval can be re-calculated using all the data you have posted and brought into your argument, efficacy across multiple authorities for multiple vaccines solving your issue of not enough cases. That is what I lead you towards (though you weren't anywhere near smart enough to see it).

    I guess you missed my post this morning commenting on your multiple authority multiple vaccine meta-analysis theory?!



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Instead you use a different approach. Your spiel is to find particular studies, etc that you "don't get", then keep baiting others into providing explanations that you will never accept. As evidenced and demonstrated by your hundreds of posts here

    This is your go to argument. It is been explained to me. And I refuse to understand the perfectly rational explanations that are offered.

    Let me remind you what the bulk of my posts have concerned. It's not a study that I don't get.

    It's a simple statement that I am claiming as a fact: the trial data on severe Covid was insufficient to make reliable conclusions on the VE against severe covid.

    I have asked you numerous times the simple question whether or not you think I am wrong on this point.

    You refuse to answer that instead telling me to accept explanations that are ridiculous. We've had two of most crazy today alone - FightingTao's extremely reliable but not yet determined and astrofools meta-analysis.

    Do you think those are valid explanations disproving the statement the trial data on severe Covid was insufficient to make reliable conclusions on the VE against severe covid?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,534 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Not relevant to Covid Vaccine safety directly, but sometimes, the wheels of US Justice spin the right way. And this is such a nice... unification I guess of various things in the news lately.





  • Registered Users Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭snowcat


    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2203965?query=featured_home

    I got banned from the Vaccine thread by Beasty for suggesting vaccination was looking like it was not effective against infection. Nice to see the obvious being confirmed

    RESULTS

    The effectiveness of previous infection alone against symptomatic BA.2 infection was 46.1% (95% confidence interval [CI], 39.5 to 51.9). The effectiveness of vaccination with two doses of BNT162b2 and no previous infection was negligible (−1.1%; 95% CI, −7.1 to 4.6), but nearly all persons had received their second dose more than 6 months earlier.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭hometruths


    That's the thing about the vaccine thread, it doesn't actually matter what you say - if a mod decides you have an anti vax agenda you can be banned for that even if you are pointing out something that is inarguably true. I was discussing this recently on other forum with another poster who said:

    In my experience, a reasonably researched and presented opinion has no problem being accepted on any forum.

    In theory that sounds inarguable. but I think the vaccine megathread is an exception. I replied:

    Just as one example, over on boards stating that the vaccines were approved to prevent Covid 19 infections rather than to reduce the hospitalisations and death is not acceptable in the vaccine thread. Or it wasn't a few months ago. It may be now. I've no idea.

    It was unacceptable not because it was untrue, but because posting it was evidence of an "anti vax agenda", and the mod warning is:

    Please do not use these threads to push anti-vax agendas. If you want to make a conspiracy out of vaccines use our Conspiracy Theory Forum.

    Thus it became the norm, that irrespective of how well researched, presented and true your opinion might be, any negative comment on the vaccines was considered to be evidence of an anti-vax agenda - off to the CT theory forum with you!

    And good luck with trying out a reasonably researched and presented opinion on the lunatic regulars in there!

    Any opinion they are unwilling or unable to argue, they simply counter with "Liar! You have been banned from posting in the Covid forums because you are a proven conspiracy theorist, why should we take anything you say seriously?"

    It's a very odd situation!




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  • Registered Users Posts: 30,262 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Nope, that's not what the linked article says.

    "Nearly all persons had received their second dose more than 6 months earlier."

    "Booster vaccination was associated with an approximately 60% reduced risk of infection."

    Vaccination not effective against infection? What vaccinations? And what variant infections? Over what duration?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭snowcat


    Its a standard tactic of the EPV's. Look for proof which obviously cannot be produced (long term effects) and then declare they are correct and have proven their point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,678 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Nope, I'm checking if you can learn through repetition, I guess that's another thing you can't do :)

    Meta-analysis isn't a theory either, another thing you will fail to learn today :)

    I have asked you numerous times the simple question whether or not you think I am wrong on this point.

    Everybody thinks you're wrong and you have been proven wrong on that in intricate detail, with yourself leading the data analysis, with some leading by others.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Everybody thinks you're wrong and you have been proven wrong on that in intricate detail, with yourself leading the data analysis, with some leading by others.

    I'm in no doubt what you think. The reason I asked DohnJoe that question is that I suspect he is smart enough to realise otherwise.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,678 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Actually here's a question, lets see if it leads you again, after a trial results, what are the ways of reducing the confidence interval bands? Let's see if you can answer without spinning out.



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  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭hometruths




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭snowcat


    Maybe get on to the authors to confirm their findings. Which booster and how long does it last? Are you confirming a booster lasts 6 months and it is then ineffective? What does the linked article say then if it does not say quite clearly that 2 doses after 6 months is not in any way effective against infection.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,262 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    The article states that booster vaccines showed a significant reduction in infections.

    Therefore the authors have confirmed that that vaccines demonstrate an effect against infection.

    Therefore the claim made (without any qualification on variants or duration since vaccination) that "vaccination was looking like it was not effective against infection" is shown to be false, by a chosen article you linked to.

    So yep, you were spreading disinformation about vaccines.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭snowcat


    Quoting an article from the bmj now qualifies as 'misinformation'. I did not mention boosters. I said two dose as the article did with the caveat of greater than 6 months in the article.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,262 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Misrepresenting the contents of an article is misinformation. The misinformation was not in the part you directly quoted but in the spin you attempted to put on the article with your 'headline' information -> which the article disproves.

    Where does the article state that, without qualification, that "vaccination was looking like it was not effective against infection."

    Given that the article claims no such thing and in fact says that:

    Booster vaccination was associated with an approximately 60% reduced risk of infection.

    Can you explain therefore how vaccination (without qualification) was not effective against infection (full stop) if booster vaccination demonstrated significant effect at reducing infection?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭snowcat


    'The effectiveness of vaccination with two doses of BNT162b2 and no previous infection was negligible (−1.1%; 95% CI, −7.1 to 4.6),'



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,678 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Ha, go find out and come back to us then.

    *how to show everyone you're running away without running away*



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,262 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Your posts are now utterly dishonest as your attempt to quote it out of context in at attempt to deceive others.

    This is what the article says:

    the finding that mRNA vaccines have negligible effectiveness against omicron infection 6 or more months after the second dose

    And we come back to:

    Booster vaccination was associated with an approximately 60% reduced risk of infection.

    So the article clearly shows that your original claim was false and repeating it at this stage is a lie.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭hometruths


    after a trial results, what are the ways of reducing the confidence interval bands?

    Given that my point is precisely what the approvers conclusions on the available trial data was, how on earth is how one might look to subsequently reduce confidence interval limits remotely relevant to my point?! Why do I need to go and find this out?! I've proven my point by quoting the approvers verbatim.

    If you think there is a point to be made on this, by all means make it and we can discuss, but if not you're just hand waving to deflect again!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭snowcat


    No they are not. I have stated exactly what you have stated. I never mentioned boosters. As you have quoted succinctly unless you have had a booster and if your vaxxes were 6 months previous you have negligible protection from infection. The majority of Irish people have been vaxxed and paradoxically infected.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 30,262 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    But that's not what you claimed originally. Your original claim was without qualification re: booster or duration since vaccination but was a statement about vaccines fullstop.

    A booster is a vaccine.

    Therefore, if a booster is a vaccine and a booster vaccine is shown to effective at reducing infection your original claim is shown to be false.

    Nowhere does the article state that vaccination is not effective which was your original claim, made without foundation.

    All you have are lies, deliberate attempts at misrepresentation by quoting out of context and shifting of the goalposts when your claims are shown to be based on a lie.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭snowcat


    Yes but the same applies to the vaccine(booster). It just means your initial vaccine(s) were effective for max 6 months. Which would explain the spread in Ireland even after the vaccine(booster) campaign.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,262 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Claiming something isn't effective (at all) is entirely different to claiming that it is effective for a certain amount of time.

    Your original claim was false and has been disproven by the article you linked to.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,678 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    It's much more fun to make you do the work and prove yourself wrong yourself as you've been doing all the way through.

    Because when you're told directly by people you just ignore it (as you're already trying to do) or start getting pedantic.

    Needless to say, I understand how you reduce the confidence intervals using meta-analysis, now it's up to you to get there.

    Or you can just say you don't understand how it all works, in which case many can explain it to you but that would mean you have to accept their answer rather than spinning off into your own misunderstanding again.

    So, do you want it explained and promise not to misunderstand or do you want to tell everyone how you think it might work?

    Or do you want to keep on looking foolish?

    The decision, as ever, is yours to take :) (I've even given you some clues to piece it together).



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭snowcat


    You are right so...the vaccines work great. Exactly as intended. QED

    We were told the vaccines were our way out of this. Billions were poured into vaccines making corporations and individuals unbelievably rich. We were told if there was a new variant that MRNA tech could rewrite the code in 28 days. (Why has it not happened?). We are under pressure again in our hospital system. We are on the cusp of another wave and nothing really has changed.

    Post edited by snowcat on


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,996 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    No, they generally work as intended, like any treatment.

    Some vaccines last a long time, because the virus doesn't mutate or evolve much, like Measles. Other vaccines require boosters because the virus replicates a lot, creating mutations and evolving, like Influenza.

    The current Covid vaccines are relatively very safe, they also reduce hospitalizations and deaths from the disease by around 90%. Considering this virus has killed over 6 million people in just a couple of years, the vaccines have saved a huge number of lives. Their benefits greatly outweigh any drawbacks. That's the whole purpose of them.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Again, if you want to make a point and stop deflecting and waffling, by all means make it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,996 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    I don't understand what you mean, can you explain?

    :)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭snowcat


    Of course they do. Giving them to young kids though is borderline irresponsible as we now know kids generally dont suffer from Covid and we now know they have little effect on transmissibility. But the EPV's will be mad to vaxx anything that moves.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,996 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    We were told the vaccines were our way out of this. Billions were poured into vaccines making corporations and individuals unbelievably rich. We were told if there was a new variant that MRNA tech could rewrite the code in 28 days. (Why has it not happened?). We are under pressure again in our hospital system. We are on the cusp of another wave and nothing really has changed.

    Ah you added this bit on. To address all these points for the 400th time

    "We WeRe ToLD" - No we weren't.

    Companies make money. Masks, vaccines, laptops. Thankfully we have large companies that can produce large amounts of things we need at short notice.

    We had the largest wave early in the year, but thanks to vaccines hospitalizations and deaths were relatively much lower than previous waves. Which also meant the hospitals were able to cope.



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