Dublin Pride ends media partnership with RTE over Liveline's Gender Identity discussion

Sweetemotion · 17-06-2022 9:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119217059#Comment_119217059

It's not just trans women, it's any man.

AllForIt · 17-06-2022 9:38pm

In respect of The Six o'Clock show segment, I don't know what John was on about when he said the story is being framed as this big gay organization attacking poor little RTE - Dublin Pride is a NGO...

That's the problem right there, I didn't know Dublin Pride was run by an NGO, I would have thought there was just some Dublin Pride Committee, so what he revealed is even worse that what people think is going on!

David she he's 'fatigued' about discussion on human rights. This is so absurd, how on earth can you have human rights enshrined in law is you never have a debate about the specific rights in the first place. So the state can just go ahead and do whatever they like without any debate is it?

*And I don't get how they can say 'they are part of the community' themselves. Unless they are trans umbrella themselves, maybe they are Drag Queens, Fem Boys, gender-fluid or whatever else, they didn't say. That Livelive debate had nothing under the sun to do with me personally being a 'member' of the same sex attracted 'community'.

*edit: Of course I get it. There's an awful lot of tribalism manufacturing going on by the left. Just the other day I saw in my local library I think it was, a pamphlet advocating for 'safe spaces' for LGBT folk ('so they can be themselves') at their places of work. Yeah, segregation, brilliant. I find that type of think utterly repulsive but that's perhaps a topic for another day.

17-06-2022 9:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119217643#Comment_119217643

He needs to identify what human right is denied to trans people in Ireland that is otherwise enjoyed by the rest of the population.

To date, I've yet to find one - just one - despite the fact we are repeatedly told that trans rights are human rights.

What trans human rights are missing that everyone else enjoys?

Unless we know the answer to this question, and not variations or tweaks of it, we cannot fight for rights that we cannot identify to begin with.

At least with gay marriage, we had a definable target.

With trans- rights, those rights are - for some reason - not disclosed to us.

spookwoman · 17-06-2022 9:43pm

How long has it taken for the government to sort out gender pay gaps for women? For organizations of 250+ they have to have equal pay, 150+ in 2024 and 50+ in 2025. It took till 2020 to sort out the symphysiotomy redress scheme. Women still get the husband stitch in some cases. The cervical smear scandal where they tried to brush it under the carpet.

We have to fight long and hard for our rights and to sort out the horrendous treatment of women at the hands of medical professionals and government, now they want to remove our identity on the quiet.

They can go f*ck off, we have earned our right to our identity and you are not going to take it without a fight.

MrMusician18 · 17-06-2022 9:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119215012#Comment_119215012

The problem for a lot of the LGB campaigners that have now taken up this mantle is that they love campaigning but LGB issues have largely been resolved - so they just moved onto another tangential topic that had placed itself well in the mid 2010's

archfi · 17-06-2022 10:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119217660#Comment_119217660

I'd add, more importantly, that the journalist or interviewer should ask that question. Yet does that happen?...

And also, it's important for people to understand that the National LGBTQI+ (!) Strategy is/was dominated by extremely small interest groups especially BeLongTo and TENI, both of which basically dictate/instruct to every other established formerly LGB orgs. This stuff is govt stamped National Strategy affecting education, companies, media etc which demands all coverage be uncritical nor investigative and fully based on gender identity (that is the goal) taking preference over sex class/sexuality in all walks of life.

It is govt strategy and cannot be changed except through a change of government which even if that happens won't change a thing or brook any dissent as all possible configurations currently of any govt are at one with this.

This isn't some marginal crankfest going on.

This is the 'most marginalised' community (ie activist charities and lobbyists) at work and not just here.

volchitsa · 17-06-2022 10:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119217668#Comment_119217668

Yes, all of this - completely! We had to fight for the right to our own bodies, and now some women want to give away our hard-earned rights because colonialism or something. Madness.

17-06-2022 10:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119217822#Comment_119217822

I'm not a woman, so I can't comment really.

All I can say with certainty is that, if I was referred to as a "person with a penis" - I would find this kind of language wholly dehumanising, demeaning, almost Orwellian-speak, and I would - as a consequence - reject it wholeheartedly.

So whilst I cannot speak on behalf of women, I can imagine how ugly it must be to have yourselves written out of everything because a tiny minority of biological males want to be included in your category.

gameoverdude · 17-06-2022 10:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119217831#Comment_119217831

While I agree with you on the your reference to changing a man to being a person with a penis, I think it's far more serious for biological women.

I whole heartily agree with people being happy in their own skin and living the life that fulfils them, but at what cost to other's(not aimed at you)?

Its a complex issue and something all need to ponder and look deep inside, as was said before "as a community", to come up with a reasonable and cross denomination plan to, well be cool.

17-06-2022 10:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119217897#Comment_119217897

"Community" is the wrong word.

We are all individuals, and all individually - whether gay or straight or LGBT or otherwise - have our own opinions.

bokale · 17-06-2022 10:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119217594#Comment_119217594

No I think this debate is about the Maternity act. I didn't see any mention of cervix.

gameoverdude · 17-06-2022 10:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119217922#Comment_119217922

Hmmm. This is why discussion is good.

I see community slightly differently to you. I don't care about your sexuality. I care about who you are.

When I said community, I was more talking about encompassing everyone, regardless of whatever.

17-06-2022 11:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119217951#Comment_119217951

Ah if that's the case, then I'm on board with you.

Often, the word "community" is hijacked by minorities with their own common, limited interest.

gameoverdude · 17-06-2022 11:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119217989#Comment_119217989

Got ya.

Yeah. I'm more of "not enough love in this world" kinda guy.

Princess Calla · 17-06-2022 11:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119216265#Comment_119216265

@bokale Eskimo has it outlined here.

So obviously a female who identifies as male is now pregnant or has been pregnant.

Again if you're identifying as male why are you getting pregnant?

bokale · 17-06-2022 11:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119218010#Comment_119218010

Maybe I missed it but I'm not sure where "person with a cervix" is coming from?

Think this is the act being debated?

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1994/act/34/enacted/en/html

Sweetemotion · 17-06-2022 11:25pm

All you women need to calm down.

Because, Bokale can't see where "person with a cervix" is coming from.

17-06-2022 11:42pm

Am I reading the Broadcasting Act wrong or did uplift get 1k people to complain to RTE about the wrong section of the Act?

Was reading here (https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40897364.html) that Uplift contacted their 336,000 members and asked them to complain to RTE about Liveline, was interested what the complaint they had people send in was,(https://action.uplift.ie/campaigns/send-rte-a-message-condemning-toxic-coverage-of-trans-issues-liveline-1?mail_mode=old) it says that Liveline violated s39 (1c) of the Broadcasting Act 2009 but from my reading thats in relation to how much time broadcasters have to spend talking a day or am I interpreting it wrong? https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2009/act/18/section/39/enacted/en/html#sec39

Also they've called off RTE going in front of the Committee https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40898528.html

"An RTÉ spokesperson told The Irish Examiner: "The Joint Committee has written to RTÉ this evening confirming it will not proceed with the proposed hearing next week.""

StrawbsM · 17-06-2022 11:56pm

HSE website

Danno · 17-06-2022 11:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119217748#Comment_119217748

I won't deny that I've just waded in upon this thread - but this post suggests to me that today's government/NGO sector is way more interested in the going-ons in the bedrooms of Ireland than the catholic Church ever was.

Ireland has changed alot - but sometimes I wonder if the hamster wheel has turned full circle and a new hamster is running.

blarney_boy · 17-06-2022 11:58pm

So the politicians that wanted to organise a committee of investigation / struggle session where Joe Duffy and his producers would prostrate themselves before the council of elders begging for forgiveness have sensed the change in the wind of public opinion and are now rescinding the invite . . . everyone off the bandwagon . . . Malcolm Byrne has changed his mind 🤮

political analyst · 17-06-2022 11:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119218155#Comment_119218155

I remember that there was an outcry about this from gender-critical feminists and so, as a result, the word 'woman' was added by the HSE.

18-06-2022 12:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119218155#Comment_119218155

Of the terms "Anyone with a Cervix" ---- versus "Women"; which of these two terms in a public health campaign will attract more women to come forward to clinics to get tested?

The answer to that question says everything that is wrong about the removal of the word "women" from relevant spaces.

StrawbsM · 18-06-2022 12:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119218170#Comment_119218170

Ah. It’s not on the pages I screenshotted above but does include “women” on the cervical screening page. Their info on periods just mentions women or girls too.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/hse-defends-removing-references-to-women-in-online-cervical-cancer-information-1.4357438

18-06-2022 12:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119217328#Comment_119217328

I've no idea why you quoted me and directed that at me... it doesn't relate to what I said.

political analyst · 18-06-2022 12:37am

Gender-critical feminists fear that the new 'hate speech' law will criminalise the expression of concern about gender self-ID and the removal of the word 'mother' from the legislation that was discussed on Liveline.

What if someone who was born male but IDs as female sexually abuses a natal female in a females-only space (e.g. toilet-room, changing room, prison etc) and the 'hate speech' law creates a 'chilling effect' around the reporting of such a crime?

One eyed Jack · 18-06-2022 1:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119218010#Comment_119218010

Again if you're identifying as male why are you getting pregnant?

Freddy McConnell was asked that very question -

I ask McConnell why it was so important for him to carry his own child and he replies with a question of his own: why does anybody want a child? “Straight people don’t get asked, ‘Why didn’t you adopt? Why was it so important to be genetic parents?’ So why do gay and trans people get asked that?” He says it has taken him a long time to separate being trans from what his body looks like. “It is not something that I can choose, or leave behind, or change. It’s not something predicated on my physical state. It’s a thing, it’s part of me. So if I’m pregnant, it doesn’t change me being trans.”

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/apr/20/the-dad-who-gave-birth-pregnant-trans-freddy-mcconnell

McConnell later lost their legal battle to register as their child’s father -

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2020/nov/16/trans-man-loses-uk-legal-battle-to-register-as-his-childs-father

@eskimohunt was also earlier looking for an example of a human right that people who are transgender do not have. That’s one. It’s similar in Irish legislation btw, and in order to apply to the ECHR, all domestic legal remedies had to be exhausted first -

https://freddymcconnell.com/blog-everything/going-to-the-european-court-of-human-rights

It may well turn out to be as influential a case on UK and Irish legislation as the Goodwin v United Kingdom case in 2002 which led to the introduction of the Gender Recognition Act in 2004. It took Ireland another 10 years and three court cases to do the same, as opposed to this idea that the GRA was somehow snuck in under the radar. Lydia Foy’s legal battles were widely publicised in national and international media each time -

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20223996.html

The idea that it was tailgating on the marriage equality campaign is complete nonsense. It had to be addressed and introduced into Irish law before the marriage equality referendum could even take place, because regardless of the outcome of the referendum, it still would have meant people who are transgender were not recognised in Irish law. There’s been some progress in Irish legislation since then on the issue of same-sex parents, but it only applies to lesbian couples in limited circumstances -

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/new-co-parenting-legal-recognition-for-lesbian-couples-not-enough-says-campaigners-39179179.html

@eskimohunt , as a gay man, does not enjoy the same human rights as heterosexual men who become fathers -

https://www.thejournal.ie/surrogacy-irish-gay-dads-group-sharon-keogan-5749839-Apr2022/?amp=1

It’s not all doom and gloom though -

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/campaigners-hail-gay-couples-wins-in-surrogacy-cases-0skgxcc6s

https://mobile.twitter.com/MarkLTighe/status/1472623751615459340

spookwoman · 18-06-2022 3:08am

If we start removing women and men from laws where will it stop and are we going to have to rewrite dictionary's to appease a few people. If mother, woman or women is changed to persons on the maternity legislation it will have to be changed everywhere else, you cannot just change it for one law that covers one gender. We are already seeing the words being removed from legislation eg Paternity leave. It's says

Subject to this Part, an employee who is a relevant parent in relation to a child shall be entitled to 2 weeks’ leave from his or her employment, to be known (and referred to in this Act) as “paternity leave”, to enable him or her to provide, or assist in the provision of, care to the child or to provide support to the relevant adopting parent or mother of the child, as the case may be, or both"

Paternity "late Middle English: from Old French paternité, from late Latin paternitas, from paternus ‘relating to a father’." Just as Maternity "early 17th century: from French maternité, from Latin maternus, from mater ‘mother’."

It's starting to take the p*ss with all this changing of what we know as male and female because of a few.

AllForIt · 18-06-2022 3:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119218403#Comment_119218403

It is a good point though. If you are so convinced your a man, and you want to live as a man, and socially transition to be outwardly viewed as a man, then what are you doing having a baby? That's not a man thing to do is it. He could still have a genetic baby without having it himself. Like he could have donated his embro? So it seems to me he's (and I've always thought this) it's the outward superficial appearance in society of being a man that's more important to him, than it is that he actually IS a man. It's amazing how quickly he can ditch the idea of what a man is when he want's something else (that fundamentally contradicts being a man) at the same time. Kinda interested in human psychology so shoot me.

The idea that it was tailgating on the marriage equality campaign is complete nonsense. It had to be addressed and introduced into Irish law before the marriage equality referendum could even take place, because regardless of the outcome of the referendum, it still would have meant people who are transgender were not recognised in Irish law. There’s been some progress in Irish legislation since then on the issue of same-sex parents, but it only applies to lesbian couples in limited circumstances -

When I talk about gender ideals being snuck in under the gay banner, I'm not talking about all the legal stuff you're on about. No doubt interesting as all that side of it is. I'm taking about, and I'm sure most people are, are alluding to gender identities being taught to children and all that stuff. That has nothing to do with legal rights. In fact, now that it occurs to me, I can't believe I've never made that point before. Is it a trans right that schools should teach kids about trans people? No I don't think so. That's a social issue.

edit: typo

charlie_says · 18-06-2022 4:05am

Can someone link the 6 clock show talk please. Thanks

Dublin Pride ends media partnership with RTE over Liveline's Gender Identity discussion

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